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Pathfinder Adventure, LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Discussion today yielded two major contradictory rules regarding Tiny Creatures:
First:
The usage of melee on Tiny/Diminutive species.
Examples: Stellifera outside of Hydrobody, Raxlites not using LFAN.
Per the rules, they have a reach of 0 feet, and "must enter an opponent's square" to perform a melee. However, there does not seem to be any rule allowing them to do so - only one denying it. This is obviously not RAI, so it seems we need an FAQ on this one. Both PF1 and PF2 have language allowing Tiny creatures to move into a size-disparate square, but this seems to be missing in SF.
Second
NPC size and reach.
The section on reading stat blocks states that a creatures size should determine its space and reach, but also that if a space and reach is not specifically stated, it is 5ft for both. RAI is obvious that creatures which omit this information should follow the size-based norm, but right now RAW codifies all unstated creatures as Medium space and reach.
As an aside:
Additionally, Guardian Skittermander implies that even a Skittermander, a small creature, should be able to share spaces with others, and gets special modification of unstated penalties.
For additional humor, the Scurry feat exists, which allows you to do this "without penalties," and the Underfoot feat allows you to do it at advantage. However, both of these are restricted to creatures of size small, which doubles as both insight into RAI and a request for an errata to include smaller races.
Relevant Rule Citations:
Reach and Threatened Squares:
AoN
Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares unless using weapons with the reach special property. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This movement may provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent.
Tactical Movement:
AoN
You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless that creature is helpless.
Size and Space:
AoN
Fine, Diminutive, And Tiny
These creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. Up to 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square.
How to Read Stat Blocks:
AoN Alignment, Size, Type, and Subtype
A creature’s listed alignment represents the norm for many of those creatures; it can vary as you require for the needs of your campaign. A creature’s size determines its space and reach. Some innate abilities come from the creature’s type and subtype.
...
Space and Reach
The creature’s space and reach are noted here; if the creature’s space and reach are a 5-foot square and a reach of 5 feet, respectively, this entry is omitted. Any special reach (from weapons or the like) is listed in parentheses.
Beyond the limited PC races this applies to, there are quite a few animal companions that are tiny and don't have a ranged method to attack every round and presumably should be using a melee attack after entering an opponent's square (and taking an attack of opportunity in the process).
Pathfinder Adventure, LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
Beyond the limited PC races this applies to, there are quite a few animal companions that are tiny and don't have a ranged method to attack every round and presumably should be using a melee attack after entering an opponent's square (and taking an attack of opportunity in the process).
Agreed. A big one in my mind for this was also level 1 summons, a great many whom don't have ranged attacks, and shouldn't have a reach. But as is, they technically have reach by technicality due to the second rules conflict.
Pathfinder Adventure, LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
My mind just realized, in the process of gathering asides I overlooked a crucial bit of RAI:
At the very least, Starfinder was intended for Small creatures to be able to share space with Medium creatures, at a penalty for "both you and your ally" per Scurry. The lack of Tiny- being on those feats could be oversight, but it could also mean that there was intent for there to be no penalty with a 2-size difference.
As extrapolation, "penalties to share a square" could entirely have been intended to use the Squeezing rule. After all, two medium or a small and medium both sharing a square would be taking up "half the normal space."
My mind just realized, in the process of gathering asides I overlooked a crucial bit of RAI:
At the very least, Starfinder was intended for Small creatures to be able to share space with Medium creatures, at a penalty for "both you and your ally" per Scurry. The lack of Tiny- being on those feats could be oversight, but it could also mean that there was intent for there to be no penalty with a 2-size difference.
I think the two size difference thing is supposed to be there, or at the very least tiny creatures sharing spaces appears to be assumed.
As extrapolation, "penalties to share a square" could entirely have been intended to use the Squeezing rule. After all, two medium or a small and medium both sharing a square would be taking up "half the normal space."
I've seen that extrapolation before but is far too expploitable to be a thing without being listed.
Pathfinder Adventure, LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Ravien999 wrote:
My mind just realized, in the process of gathering asides I overlooked a crucial bit of RAI:
At the very least, Starfinder was intended for Small creatures to be able to share space with Medium creatures, at a penalty for "both you and your ally" per Scurry. The lack of Tiny- being on those feats could be oversight, but it could also mean that there was intent for there to be no penalty with a 2-size difference.
I think the two size difference thing is supposed to be there, or at the very least tiny creatures sharing spaces appears to be assumed.
As extrapolation, "penalties to share a square" could entirely have been intended to use the Squeezing rule. After all, two medium or a small and medium both sharing a square would be taking up "half the normal space."
I've seen that extrapolation before but is far too expploitable to be a thing without being listed.
Which is therein why this really needs to be an FAQ. The tiny creatures sharing spaces is codified as up to 4 able to share a single space. There's just no interaction with larger sizes codified.
