Monk Blade
Aura: moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Weight -; Price 20,000 gp
DESCRIPTION
Requirement: This ability can only be placed on light or one-handed bladed melee piercing or/and slashing weapons (e.g. daggers, swords, spears, axes) without the monk special weapon quality.
The bladed weapon is the result of painstaking attention and craftsmanship. A monk blade weapon In the hands of a monk a monk blade weapon becomes an instrument of deadly utility. It can be employed as though the wielder were unarmed: the wielder benefits from feats such as Deflect Arrows or Snatch Arrows (although he can redirect attacks but not catch them if he has no hands free), and a monk treats the blade as a monk weapon for use in his flurry of blows.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a monk; Cost 10,000 gp
---
This is of course an ability that mirrors the unnamed quality of the Blade of the Sword Saint.
Reasonable?
The topic is probably old hat, it has been discussed before, but would you change sth. ruleswise or about the wording?
Sadly I can no longer edit. Second sentence should read: "In the hands of a monk a monk blade weapon becomes an instrument of deadly utility." (Delete the first four words).
When you break down the Blade of the Sword Saint, the ability that is left basically costs 25,000gp.
Breakdown:
Katana: 50gp
Masterwork Price: 300gp
Ki Intensifying: +2
Enhancement Bonus: +3
Total Effective Bonus: +5 = 50,000gp
Cost Total: 50,350gp
75,350 – 50,350gp = 25,000gp
So what you've got is off by 5,000gp.
Not that I'm upset by that. It's quite a bit for not too much IMO. I do dislike that you've limited to only light or one-handed, slashing or piercing weapons, since martial artists use a variety of weapons, including 2H and blunt weapons.
The name isn't great (I'm terrible at naming things), but this is what I came up with:
Ki Infused
Aura: faint transmutation; CL: 5th; Weight: - ; Price: 15,000gp
DESCRIPTION
Requirement: This ability can only be placed on melee weapons without the monk special weapon quality.
The weapon is the result of painstaking attention and craftsmanship. In the hands of a monk, the weapon becomes an instrument of deadly utility. It can be employed as though the wielder were unarmed: the wielder benefits from feats such as Deflect Arrows or Snatch Arrows (although he can redirect attacks but not catch them if he has no hands free), and the weapon gains the Monk special weapon quality. A monk is proficient in the use of a Ki Infused weapon.
Only melee weapons can have the Ki Infused ability. It cannot be placed on an amulet of mighty fights or similar non-weapon item.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a monk; Cost: 7,500gp
Ki Infused, Greater
Aura: moderate transmutation; CL: 8th; Weight: - ; Price: 25,000gp
DESCRIPTION
Requirement: This ability can only be placed on melee weapons without the monk special weapon quality.
The weapon is the result of painstaking attention and craftsmanship. In the hands of a monk, the weapon becomes an instrument of deadly utility. It can be employed as though the wielder were unarmed: the wielder benefits from feats such as Deflect Arrows or Snatch Arrows (although he can redirect attacks but not catch them if he has no hands free), and the weapon gains the Monk special weapon quality. A monk is proficient in the use of a Ki Infused weapon.
Only melee weapons can have the Ki Infused ability. It cannot be placed on an amulet of mighty fights or similar non-weapon item. Weapons with the Ki Infused ability can be upgraded to Ki Infused, Greater. If a Ki Infused, Greater weapon also has the Ki Focus or Ki Intensifying ability, the monk may use unarmed damage in place of the weapon's normal damage.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a monk; Cost: 12,500gp
I added a line that would make monks with these enchantments proficient in the weapon to make it compatible with the Core Monk (since they aren't automatically proficient with all Monk weapons).
Thanks for pointing out the right item cost. I rather should have calculated again than just write down from (obviously bad) memory.
But I feel the spirit of the ability is to have a blade and I would not add proficiency - that should even increase the cost.
I'd like the ability to be as close to the rules as possible.
Of course your version is perfectly fine, too.
Treating it as a monk weapon automatically gives an Unchained Monk proficiency with it, that's without the line I added. The Core Monk not having the same thing was terrible, so the line just fixed that bit.
If it is a katana, or some other weapon, the monk doesn't gain proficiency with all katanas, just with a Ki Infused one (since it's treated as a Monk weapon).
I would say that if you want to keep the spirit, it should be limited to one handed slashing weapons only, no light weapons and no piercing weapons.
If you look at the Ki Focus ability, that is very similar to what the Blade of the Sword Saint, your version or my version does, which is only the cost of a +1 bonus. Maybe compare it to Ki Intensifying, which has a cost of a +2 bonus, so I could see it costing 5,000gp or 6,000gp.
If we look at the abilities that just have a gp cost, Transformative and Dueling are in the +4 or +5 category and cost 10,000gp and 14,000gp respectively. Whereas Impervious and Glamered are both in the +1 category and cost 3,000gp and 4,000gp respectively.
This ability isn't nearly worth a +4 or +5 ability, and in no way should cost more than 15k. The only reason why it does cost 25k for the Blade of the Sword Saint, is that someone at Paizo doesn't like Monks.
I have two questions:
1. Why does this enchantment need to exist? What's the goal in creating it?
2. Why are you using that ridiculously ambiguous language from Blade of the Sword Saint?
Seriously, that text is a nightmare. "It can be employed as though the wielder were unarmed" could mean anything, while Deflect Arrows and Snatch Arrows don't actually interact with unarmed strikes.
First, remove all the flavor stuff.
If you want the weapon to be used instead of a free hand for Catch Arrows, you should say so: "While wielding the <weapon>, the wielder does not need not have a hand free to use Deflect Arrows." No need to even mention Snatch Arrows.
If it should only allow flurry of blows, the last sentence (" and a monk treats the blade as a monk weapon for use in his flurry of blows.") can stay. Be aware that especially unMonk is still unable to use some crucial abilities with it, then.
1.) I want a weapon enchantment that does what the blade of the sword saint does without it being the blade of the sword saint. I thought that was rather obvious, no?
2.) The language does not strike me as ridiculously ambiguous.
@Egeslean05: The monk blade enchantment does not grant proficiency, neither does the Blade of the Sword Saint. It just enables you to use the weapon while using flurry of blows.
If that's the way you want to go with it, then that means the ability is useless on a Katana, since unless a character has Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Katana), they can only use them Two-Handed. Meaning your version doesn't work since you specify that it can only be put on a light or one-handed weapon, not a 2H weapon.
So one of two things in your version are wrong/need to change:
1) The weapons it can be be applied to.
2) Monks are not considered proficient with the enchanted weapon.
1.) I want a weapon enchantment that does what the blade of the sword saint does without it being the blade of the sword saint. I thought that was rather obvious, no?
Does it need to be exactly what the BotSS does, and if yes, why? If not, what parts do you actually want?
What you want could probably be done with Versatile Design + Ascetic Form, anyway.
2.) The language does not strike me as ridiculously ambiguous.
But it is. The problem is the part that says "It can be employed as though the wielder were unarmed". What does that mean? When I'm unarmed, my attacks profit from Amulet of Mighty Fists, do my attacks with that weapon now profit from the item as well? If I'm unarmed, I can benefit from feats like 8url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/hex-strike-combat]Hex Strike[/url], do my attacks with that weapon now benefit from the feat as well?
Also bear in mind that the extract from BotSS iwas intended to only be used in combination with the effects of Ki Focus.
A Monk needs EWP or Martial Weapon Prof. Katana to use a Blade of the Sword Saint or a Monk Blade Katana. One-handed weapos can usually be wielded in two hands.
So the ability can be placed on a Katana or a bastard sword for example, which still could be wielded in two hands.
Blade of the Sword Saint:
monk treats the blade as a monk weapon for use in his flurry of blows
Unchained Monk:
Monks are proficient with.......and any weapon with the monk special weapon quality.
All Monks:
Flurry of Blows:
At 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows.....When using this ability, the monk can make these attacks with any combination of his unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality.
So no, an Unchained Monk does not need EWP or Martial Weapon Prof with a katana to use the Blade of a Sword Saint.
If the special quality of it really means that is ONLY works as a monk weapon when using Flurry of Blows, then it is worth even LESS than what it's priced for.
If the above is the case, then an UMonk would be able to use it perfectly fine while using Flurry of Blows, without needing any extra feats, they just wouldn't be able to make non-Flurry attacks with it without suffering penalties for not being proficient in it's use. (And if this is how it's meant, that makes no sense whatsoever.)
If it is considered a monk weapon, and just making it clear it works with the monk's flurry of Blows, then that is decent, but still not worth the massive cost.
If the above is correct, then not only does that make the most sense, a UMonk doesn't need any feats to be proficient in its use.
This is why, in my version, I went with the second interpretation (since it makes sense) and I made sure to state that the Core Monk is proficient with it (since Core Monks are not automatically proficient with all Monk weapons).
@Egeslean05: I get your point, I still believe the Blade of the Sword Saint does not grant any proficiencies and in my opinion, it should not.
If that's the way you want to go with it, then that means the ability is useless on a Katana, since unless a character has Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Katana), they can only use them Two-Handed.
Katana and Bastard Sword are both classified as one-handed weapons. While actually wielding them they might behave and count as two-handed, but for enchantment placement, that's irrelevant.
So no, an Unchained Monk does not need EWP or Martial Weapon Prof with a katana to use the Blade of a Sword Saint.
Not to use it per se, but unMonk is not proficient with BotSS. It's only treated as being a monk weapon for Flurry of Blows, it does not have the monk special weapon quality.
If the above is the case, then an UMonk would be able to use it perfectly fine while using Flurry of Blows, without needing any extra feats, they just wouldn't be able to make non-Flurry attacks with it without suffering penalties for not being proficient in it's use.
Being able to use it with FoB is independent from the non-proficient penalty. The BotSS isn't treated as a monk weapon while using FoB, but "for use in" FoB, i.e. only for fulfilling that abilities requirement.
BotSS' special ability does two things*: You can use the weapon in the FoB full-attack action, and you can use the Deflect Arrows feat without an empty hand. That's it, nothing more.
*) That's under the presumption that "It can be employed as though the wielder were unarmed" is flavor text rather than actual rule text.
Katana and Bastard Sword are both classified as one-handed weapons. While actually wielding them they might behave and count as two-handed, but for enchantment placement, that's irrelevant.
You're right, I always remember it being the other way around.
Not to use it per se, but unMonk is not proficient with BotSS. It's only treated as being a monk weapon for Flurry of Blows, it does not have the monk special weapon quality.
Being able to use it with FoB is independent from the non-proficient penalty. The BotSS isn't treated as a monk weapon while using FoB, but "for use in" FoB, i.e. only for fulfilling that abilities requirement.
BotSS' special ability does two things*: You can use the weapon in the FoB full-attack action, and you can use the Deflect Arrows feat without an empty hand. That's it, nothing more.
*) That's under the presumption that "It can be employed as though the wielder were unarmed" is flavor text rather than actual rule text.
I completely disagree with you here, so let's ask the question, 'What is a "Monk weapon"'?
As I understand it, and as it is explained:
Monk (special weapon quality):
A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flurry of blows.
If a weapon can be used in flurry of blows, it's a monk weapon.
Which means that since a monk treats the BotSS as a monk weapon for use in flurry of blows, it is treated as if it has the monk special weapon quality (because that's what it means). Meaning, an UMonk is proficient with it (though a Core Monk isn't).
One reading of BotSS could lead someone to believe it ONLY works with flurry of blows.
The other reading, which I feel is correct, it is using similar wording to the monk special weapon quality, in an attempt to make it clear that it is treated, in all ways, like a Monk Weapon.
I cannot think of any other weapon that does not have the Monk quality that can be used in flurry of blows. Maybe BotSS is the lone exception, where its text all but says it is a monk weapon, but won't come right out and say it because it's embarrassed for all of the other monk weapons (because they're almost all pretty bad).
If a weapon can be used in flurry of blows, it's a monk weapon.
No. A monk weapon is a weapon with the monk special weapon quality. What you've quoted is the description of what the special quality does. All the special properties are things that change the weapon if it has that property.
It's not being able to flurry it that gives a weapon the monk property, it's the monk property that gives a weapon the ability to flurry it!
Maybe BotSS is the lone exception, where its text all but says it is a monk weapon, but won't come right out and say it because it's embarrassed for all of the other monk weapons (because they're almost all pretty bad).
Told ya it had "ridiculously ambiguous language"! :-p
There is even a monk archetype that was, I believe, especially created for a monk that eventually switches to the blade of the sword saint: the Wanderer (its ability "Far Traveller").
@Derklord:
The BotSS ability says: "this weapon can be employed as though the wielder were unarmed (...)" and not: "this weapon can be employed as though the wielder were using unarmed strikes".
In relation to the mentioned feats this only makes sense if you're using the katana two-handed; were you using it one-handed, there had been no need to mention this at all. But the two feats are only used as examples to show what you can do with the ability; you can redirect a ranged attack with the Snatch Arrows (like a Yedi?), but not catch it, because you actually don't have a real free hand, thus indicating that you for example could not use a shield.
I think there is no interaction (intended) between this and feats or items that particularly work on/with unarmed strikes, just that you count as unarmed. You could e. g. cast spells with somatic components (compare to the special arcane bond ability of the bard archetype "arcane duelist") but as stated above, not to wield a shield.
I guess you are right and the language is confusing. Hard to come up with a solution. I'd like the ability to work with feats and abilities that need you to be unarmed or at least require one free hand, but not to work on things with unarmed strikes. That's what I believe is the intent. And thats's why it is a costly ability.
Past references in the forum:
Blade of the Sword Saint and Unarmed.
Blackbloodtroll's and Darth Grall's "stance" is similar to my understanding, as I just read.
Blade of the Sword Saint and Free Hand
Blade of the Sword Saint and Damage Pricing
comes to the conclusion that the weapon does not do unarmed strike damage and calculates the price for the ability, as Egeslean05 has done here.
There are even more references, but I am too lazy to quote all.
I'm glad you've come to see my point, and the existance of these threads you've found show that BotSS' language is indeed ambiguous.
I think there is no interaction (intended) between this and feats or items that particularly work on/with unarmed strikes, just that you count as unarmed. You could e. g. cast spells with somatic components (compare to the special arcane bond ability of the bard archetype "arcane duelist") but as stated above, not to wield a shield.
Except spell casting doesn't interact at all with being unarmed, it requires a free hand, just like Deflect Arrows does. Unarmed and free hand are completely unrelated things: You can be unarmed without having a free hand (and make unarmed strikes), and you can be armed and have a free hand. If you mean one, you should not use the other.
The BotSS ability says: "this weapon can be employed as though the wielder were unarmed (...)" and not: "this weapon can be employed as though the wielder were using unarmed strikes".
That's the thing: There is no clear distinction for this. There's basically two unarmed things in the CRB:
The first is a kind of condition, one you have when you 1st wield no weapon), 2nd) possess no natural weapons, 3rd don't have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, and 4th aren't a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell. The result is you don't threaten and can't make AoOs, you provoke while making unarmed attacks, and you suffer additional consequences from some things like Catch Off-Guard. As you can see, this is a purely negative thing, if we use this meaning, attacking with the BotSS would provoke AoOs, obviously not intended.The other thing is the unarmed strike, also often simply called unarmed attack. This is the only remaining positive game term related to the word, and as we're talking about attacking "as though [we] were unarmed", it's not exactly a leap of though to presume that BotSS benefits from things affecting unarmed attacks. [smalelr]It get's even more confusing when you realize that BotSS can indeed profit from abilities and feats only affecting unarmed strikes, because of the ki intensify ability.[/smaller]
Now, just so there is no confusion, I'm not saying BotSS actually does confer abilities affecting unarmed strikes to attacks with it, nor did I ever intent to come across as saying such. I apologize if I did. I'm just saying that BotSS' language is ridiculously ambiguous, and thus should not be used!
With that out of the way, we can discuss your weapon ability.
I'd like the ability to work with feats and abilities that need you to be unarmed or at least require one free hand, but not to work on things with unarmed strikes.
He're a problem I'm having: This doesn't make much sense. The only cases where this is even relevant is when attacking with it two-handed. As we're talkign about light and one-handed weapon, you can use Deflect Arrows with them anyway, simply remove one hand from the weapon as a free action at the end of your turn, and use another free action to regrip your weapon at the start of your next turn. AoOs made might have a slightly lower damage bonus, but that's not exactly worth an expensive weapon feature. The BotSS at least can be a two-handed weapon if you have martial but not exotic proficiency, but that's only relevant fro exactly two weapons (bastard sword and katana).
TWF and wielding a shield are basically irrelevant because the BoSS and your ability both say "In the hands of a monk a monk", as Monks very rarely do either.As the "free hand" thing is only relevant when attacking, I think the only ability really affected is Spell Combat (Swashbucklers precise Strike, for instance, requires attacking with a light or one-handed weapon, which you aren't if you wield it in two hands).
This is basically what my first question in my first post was about. As it is now, one of your weapon enchantment's two abilities is made redundant by the grip changing FAQ, while the other is mostly made superfluous by the fact that unMonk really wants Ascetic Form anyway.
No. A monk weapon is a weapon with the monk special weapon quality. What you've quoted is the description of what the special quality does. All the special properties are things that change the weapon if it has that property.
It's not being able to flurry it that gives a weapon the monk property, it's the monk property that gives a weapon the ability to flurry it!
I personally don't see the difference.
Any weapon that a monk can use with Flurry of Blows, is a monk weapon. The Monk quality is just a way to quickly show that a weapon can be used that way without having to add it into the description of every weapon capable of doing it (basically the same thing all the special weapon qualities do).
If the BotSS was in a weapon table, I really do feel in the Special column, it would have both Deadly and Monk.
Told ya it had "ridiculously ambiguous language"! :-p
I agree with you, it's badly worded, so is the Rope Dart (that one is messed up in many ways).
Any weapon that a monk can use with Flurry of Blows, is a monk weapon.
There is no rule that says this.
Any weapon that a monk can use with Flurry of Blows, is a monk weapon.There is no rule that says this.
Yes there is, you dismissed it because it didn't fit what you wanted.
A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flurry of blows.
That is literally all a monk weapon is.
In weapon tables this is shown by the Monk special weapon quality. That is all that a 'monk weapon' is, a weapon that they can flurry with.
Though it isn't stated, that is basically all that the Sohei's Weapon Training does, essentially treating the selected weapon group as monk weapons.
I did address that point, you know? I dismissed it because it doesn't apply. The only definition for a monk weapon is in the weapon special features section. No monk special weapon feature means it's not a monk weapon. That's how the rules work.
Just a few lines below your quote do the rules say "Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped."
But since every single weapon can be used to make trip attacks, your style of backwards interpretation would mean every weapon in the game would behave that way, making the it a general rule and not a "special feature [some weapons have] in addition to those noted in their descriptions." (that's what the introduction for the section says).
I don't "want" anything here, I'm telling the rules as they are. I don't give a f%@# about some crappy weapon designed to satisfy some "katana roxxor so awesome !!!!11" japan fanboys. That we even have this discussion should be more than enough to tell any sane being that repeating the wording would be a bad idea, and how the BotSS actually behaves is pretty irrelevant for a homebrew item.
And you're ignoring what else the Trip quality allows: For you to drop it instead of falling prone if you miss by 10 or more. You're clearly ignoring that part because it's how you're justifying your stance, which is wrong. Yes, every weapon can be used to trip, but those with the trip quality can be dropped to avoid being prone if you fail badly. Even the FAQ YOU LINKED calls that out.
So no, not every weapon would have it, good job at failing your own argument.
As you said, the ONLY definition of what a monk weapon is, is covered in the monk quality, which states its a weapon that a monk can use to flurry with. That is extremely simple wording, that is difficult to misinterpret, but you are somehow doing it.
Until some other source calls out what a monk weapon is, and isn't a special weapon quality, it is what we have to go by. If you can flurry with a weapon, it is a monk weapon. Simple.
You say you're telling us the rules and that you don't care, but that is clearly not the case.
But, as you also pointed out correctly, the wording for the sword is bad. However, how the BotSS behaves isn't irrelevant, if you're using it as a model for a different enchantment but want it to do something similar. That's where this entire 'monk weapon'/'not a monk weapon' discussion came from, because it's part of how that specific weapon behaves.
You apparently do not understand how the rules are written, and thus any discussion is futile.
However, how the BotSS behaves isn't irrelevant, if you're using it as a model for a different enchantment but want it to do something similar.
"Using it as a model" ≠ "making a carbon copy".