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This is a subject I've visited before. This time around, however, I'm taking a much more conservative approach, although many of the same ideas are being explored.
Here's my revised fighter class (starting with fighters because fighters are one of my favourite classes and they're the easiest to work with in this regard).
I've made the obvious choice of giving the fighter 2 extra class skills based on the Ranger and Cavalier. I've also tweaked their class skills by adding Diplomacy and Knowledge (warfare). Knowledge (warfare) is designed to allow fighters to recall combat related knowledge about creatures and thus infringing on the wizard's knowledge dominance while still allowing the wizard to be a sage and know a whole bunch of flavourful information.
I've got a new area at the front of the class called Basic Training. This is something that you only get at 1st level and so when you multiclass whichever class was your first class is the one that helps define your character the most. It also helps provide a disincentive to 1 level dips. Finally (and this is the biggest reason for them) it allows a player to customise their fighter. The basic options allow you to "trade in" heavy armor proficiency and tower shield proficiency (which aren't given by default) for making reflexe saves and/or will saves a "good save" for the fighter. Alternatively they can gain the Cavalier mount, samurai weapon proficiency, gunsmithing feat and a free gun or 2 to 6 additional skill points per level (letting the fighter have 10+Int skill points per level if a player really really wanted a skilled fighter).
Bravery has been bumped up at 3rd level and has been beefed up a bit with various alternatives provided. In addition advanced armor training, advanced weapon training and the various abilities granted by fighter archetypes have been normalised and provided as "fighter talents" (which was a concept I originally explored for an article I wrote for Trailseeker with the fighter archetype "Tactician").
At the back of the fighter class I've got two orders (one from the cavalier class and one from the samurai class) which can be gained as an alternative to the bravery class feature with order-specific fighter talents that can be chosen by members of that order (although they are not required). Finally I've converted the Samurai over to an archetype for the fighter.
Overall I wanted to incorporate as many iconic fighter "themes" as possible. So whether you want to be a knight in shining armor, samurai, mercenary or some other themed fighter, you should have sufficient class features to mix and match the ones you want. So if you want a mount, you can take it, or if you don't want a mount then simply don't choose that "basic training" option and get something else. Finally fighters don't have to waste class features on heavy armor proficiency if they want to have a Dex build (or tower shield proficiency if they want anything other than a sword and board) and can tap into more skill points that other classes get for not having those proficiencies.
IIRC Rogue Genius made Talented Fighter (and few other non-spellcasting classes based on Talented mechanism) - where basically all abilities of fighter were changed into custom talents he could choose from a large quantity of basic fighter abilities, then all archetypes modifications remade as a custom chosen talents, and probably some of their own also.
This is IMHO good idea, better than archetypes per se - just large bathes of options to combine.
Agreed. When I did the Tactician for Trailseeker I was mindful of not making it the "ultimate" fighter and essentially be better than all the other archetypes so the Tactician was less optimal if you wanted to exactly copy an archetype. This time I haven't been so concerned.
I've redone the Paladin class. I've siphoned off some of the "classic" paladin abilities into an "Order of the Righteous" and incorporated the Gray Paladin from Ultimate Intrigue into an "Order of the Covert". The alignment restriction is now part of the order, opening the way for non lawful or non good paladins.
Like the fighter I've bumped up the skills to 4 + Int. Paladins only have 1 good save by default (Will) with the option to get additional saving throws as basic options. I've also opened up Paladins to starting with tower shield proficiency if they so desire.
Detect Evil and Smite Evil have been modified to Detect Foe and Smite Foe with the type of alignment required being defined by the order (both orders have evil as their opposed alignment). A lot of the core paladin features have become paladin talents (and order talents). This has lessened the power of the paladin a bit. Whether or not I've lessened it too much depends in large part on the power of spells. If it's too neutered it would be simple enough to bump up the power level though.
The core abilities of the paladin are:
* Smite Foe (up to 7 times per day)
* Lay on Hands
* Divine Spells
* Various auras
I've tweaked the fighter talents a bit (made them more inline with the Revised Feats).
I also built a fighter using the new rules to compare it with a fighter using the standard Pathfinder rules with armor and weapon mastery training stuff. Due to my rebalance and the versatile combat training feat the fighters are fairly on par with each other. Compared to a Core Rulebook fighter it results in 3 extra talents for a fighter to choose. In my build I chose Flexible Flanker (so more likely to give the rogue a flank without the rogue having to go into a suicidal placement) and then critical deflection and deadly critical. This provides a bit more flexibility and durability. Overall though the increase is minimal (which is ideally what I was aiming for). A bit more flexibility for the fighter, a bit more well rounded but not a significant increase in durability. The biggest increase is in getting +2 skill points and a second good save (I chose Will).
In addition I've done some preliminary work on the Wizard. Here's a copy of it. Now without spells done it's difficult to say what the power levels will be.
Basic premise is similar to other classes. I have bumped up the starting number of skills from 2 + Int to 4 + Int. So an Int 18 wizard would have the 2 extra skill points compared to an Int 14 Fighter or 4 extra skills compared to an Int 10 fighter. They get the same (non-armor) options for basic training (skills, saves). They also get to select what schools of magic they know and if they specialise as basic training. 2 core rulebook schools of magic = 1 elemental (APG) school of magic (with there being 3 basic training slots in total). So from basic training alone a wizard can have 4 traditional schools of magic and 1 specialized school. At level 1 they gain an additional 2 traditional schools of magic (or 1 elemental school of magic). So in this way they equal a standard Pathfinder wizard in the range of spells they can cast.
I have removed the specialisation ability from the wizard. The low level abilities are just not included in the writeup at all. This is because they're typically low power and see minimal use beyond 1st level. Instead wizards that specialise get an extra spell slot for 0th level spells that has to be from their specialised school.
The arcane bond/familiar choice has been removed at 1st level and moved to 3rd level. Instead at 1st level all wizards simply get to choose to gain an extra spell slot that scales up with level that they can use to spontaneously cast any spell they know (as per the arcane bond option). Instead at 3rd level if a wizard chooses arcane bond, they can use it to craft themselves a magic item as their bonded item. Or they can choose to get a stock standard familiar (which could then be used to later get an improved familiar). The reason for this is I've so rarely seen anyone choose a familiar. They're either doing it because they're new, doing it with the full understanding their character will be weaker or they're doing it to do improved familiar shenanigans. I wanted to make the familiar a more viable option to the bonded item so I've removed the most potent portion of the bonded item.
Other than that there aren't any really significant differences. Wizards no longer get scribe scroll as a bonus feat at level 1. And instead of metamagic feats every 5 levels they get one every 4 levels (thus by level 16 have 4 metamagic feats same as a Core Rulebook wizard). A big reason for this is it's always questionable how many scrolls can a wizard write up before the 1st game session (thus greatly increasing their WBL and letting them get around having limited spell slots at level 1). It's always an uncomfortable adjudication and I'd rather not have it be built into the wizard class (and instead only occur if someone takes Scribe Scroll as a 1st level feat).
Instead of metamagic feats they're called "wizard talents". Wizards get the standard "have another basic training option" thus allowing a 4th level wizard to have no "banned" school and still specialise. There is also "any metamagic feat of your choice", each of the 8th level school abilities and some arcane discoveries from Ultimate Magic.
Overall very little has changed except around Arcane Bond.
I've done an initial draft on the Rogue. Thanks to a couple of small tweaks there is a significant increase in power for a combat focused Rogue when compared with a skill focused fighter. With those two goals the two characters end up being quite similar to each other in terms of skill and combat prowess.
The rogue doesn't have an increase in skill points. But in return it gets to choose 4 basic training options. The are two weapons packages for the basic training (one called thug and the other called ninja). They could both use some work, but for the interim are largely placeholders. Overall the class features gained are quite similar to the CRB rogue. However the increase in power level is due to two-weapon fighting being viable without any feats (so no two weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting or greater two-weapon fighting). Here's the exact text for my revised two-weapon fighting rules:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one free attack with your offhand weapon every time you attack with your main weapon on your turn. You suffer a –3 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –4 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties to -2 by having both weapons be a light weapon.
Double Slice doesn't exist in it's CRB format (instead it lets you make 2 attacks on a single AoO). This combined with nimble moves means the rogue can get a full attack pretty easily and make his way across the battlefield.
However the rogue isn't anywhere near his full capability without sneak attack damage. And without a flank he wouldn't ordinarily get it. However there's a 6th level rogue talent called Reliable Sneak Attack. By taking a -1d6 penalty to sneak attack dice the rogue can roll the remainder of her sneak attack damage without the need for a flank.
Overall the rogue has gotten a decent upgrade without needing skill unlocks or +dex to damage or anything like that. The two archetypes I've got is a scout archetype (for a wilderness based rogue) and the Ninja which has a number of archetype specific talents (a whole bunch of the ones that require you to spend a ki point). Ninja's have received a downgrade in that they lose out on sneak attack damage dice in order to get their ki powers. However this helps brings them more in line with my beefed up rogues.
In addition I've done some preliminary work on the Wizard. Here's a copy of it.
I've built a Wizard and reworked it a bit. The wizard was falling a bit behind at higher levels so I introduced a 16th level wizard talent that lets you ignore up to 30 points of elemental resistance (not immunity though). I deliberately chose an evocation wizard to make the comparisons to help make it "damage vs damage" when compared with the fighter. With this comparison the wizard is on par with the fighter*. The wizard still has the benefit that he gets to select the enemy's worst save to target. PCs on the other hand can choose to have all 3 saves as their "good" saves to help combat that. It's quite a bit better than taking a feat for "+2 to a single save".
In addition I'm tweaking the math behind defensive casting. It's 12 + 3 times spell level to get the spell off. This helps keep it difficult for a wizard to defensively cast spells across all levels. Furthermore, given how close the math is between a wizard and a fighter, the wizard doesn't get to have spell focus as feats it can take. The increase in DC gives the wizard too much advantage. It would require a rewrite of every spell in order to get the math right between wizard and fighter. So while a fighter needs to select feats to help it keep up, a wizard can choose feats on whatever it wants. However fighters intrinsically have good defensive measures with no need to take defensive feats. The wizard on the other hand has little to no non-spell defenses. So I think this evens out overall.
In other changes to the core classes, I've limited the ability to select new basic training options until 4th level. This only stops non-wizard classes from choosing another basic option at one level (level 3 for fighters, level 2 for rogues). This is a minor limitation.
* Along with some tweaks to some spells which can be previewed here.
I've done an initial draft on the Rogue.
There was a typo in the rogue talents section where it was listed twice (initially I was going to give the Rogue talents at level 1). I've deleted the duplication. Thanks to amberkat for spotting the typo.
So I've been quiet on this for a couple of reasons. The big one is I lost my word document with all the work I had done so far. So if it wasn't in an uploaded PDF it was gone (so my race revisions are gone for example). The other was I wasn't 100% satisfied with the rogue. But mostly the lost document.
So tonight I recompiled the rogue into a new word document and formatted it. (and made a backup). Then I started revising it again. Things I don't like with the first draft:
* Reliance on the reliable sneak attack talent.
* TWFing is pretty much required for the class to function in combat.
Here are some changes:
* Confirmed it has the correct starting skill points and basic training options give the lack of martial weapons, heavy armor and lower HP.
* Moved weapon and armor proficiency under basic training. All rogues get the weapons and armor shown in the revised PDF. But it stops multiclassed characters from getting them with a 1 level dip,
* Confirmed I was happy with the sneak attack progression (+1d6 situational damage = +1 to attack rolls = a feat).
* Removed evasion and uncanny dodge (they'll potentially become rogue talents).
* Started reviewing rogue talents to make sure they're at the right power level.
* Restricted sneak attack to only being once per round.
* Gave the rogue the option to get a secondary attack, tertiary attack and fourth attack at levels 6, 11 and 16.
That last point is a significant one and is something I've been going back and forth on a fair bit now. 6th level is significant for full BAB classes, but not for rogues. 8th level is a big deal for rogues. It means classes are unevenly getting damage jumps which means inevitably some will lag behind at certain levels. The aim is a skill focused fighter should be comparable with a damage focused rogue. So this is important. It also lets me do a few other things with other classes.
So iterative attacks are a function of level instead of BAB. In addition iterative attacks are optional. So Instead of getting a second attack at 6th level, a rogue could choose an option which lets them use sneak attack twice per round (and potentially increases the damage output), or an option that makes sneak attack more easy to do.
So that's where I am with this project
Here are some more sample options that can be taken in place of extra attacks as your BAB goes up.
Fighter Advanced Training: At 6th level a fighter may select one of the following advanced training options. A fighter may choose an additional advanced training option at 11th level and 16th level.
Extra Attack: When making a full attack a fighter gains an extra attack with his primary weapon with a -5 penalty to the attack roll. A fighter can choose this option multiple times, with the penalty increasing cumulatively for each additional attack (so if this was taken twice the first attack would have no penalty, the second attack would be at -5 and the third attack would be at -10).
Vital Strike: When making an attack the fighter may roll the weapon damage dice 1 additional time on a hit and add the total to determine their damage. This can be taken multiple times, increasing the weapon damage dice rolled by by 4 each time (so 5 additional times the second time and 9 additional times the third time).
Combat Reflexes: A fighter may make 2 additional Attacks of Opportunity each round. This can be taken multiple times.
Barbarian Advanced Training: At 6th level a barbarian may select one of the following advanced training options. A barbarian may choose an additional advanced training option at 11th level and 16th level.
Extra Attack: When making a full attack a barbarian gains an extra attack with his primary weapon with a -5 penalty to the attack roll. A barbarian can choose this option multiple times, with the penalty increasing cumulatively for each additional attack (so if this was taken twice the first attack would have no penalty, the second attack would be at -5 and the third attack would be at -10).
Vital Strike: On the barbarian's turn, he may roll the weapon damage dice 1 additional time on a hit and add the total to determine their damage. This can be taken multiple times, increasing the weapon damage dice rolled by by 4 each time (so 5 additional times the second time and 9 additional times the third time).
Cleave: On the barbarian's turn when he successfully hits a foe he may make 1 additional attack against another foe that is within reach. This can be taken multiple times, granting the barbarian one additional attack each time.
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Now this might seem like a big departure from standard PF. Except I don't think it's too much of one. If you wanted to recreate a standard fighter who gets iterative attacks, it's baked right into the class and the character would be indistinguishable from a standard PF fighter. What this does is help boost rogues and does help provide more differentiation between classes. For example a bard (and maybe even a rogue) could get a skill based ability in place of extra attack, thus letting the player decide if they want to focus more on combat or skills.
This does impinge on feats to a degree. But given I was supersizing the Cleave and Vital Strike feats and downsizing Combat Reflexes, and now characters get this in addition to a feat (instead of in place of one) I think that's a fair exchange.
Vital Strike (and Cleave to a lesser extent) does need to be mathed out to make sure the numbers stack up.
Combat Reflexes: A fighter may make 2 additional Attacks of Opportunity each round. This can be taken multiple times.
A draft of one of my fighter rewrites allowed you to choose between several options as an alternative to Bravery. Adding the bravery bonus to the number of AoOs that can be made in a round was one, a bonus to a skill of choice was another, etc.
A draft of one of my fighter rewrites allowed you to choose between several options as an alternative to Bravery. Adding the bravery bonus to the number of AoOs that can be made in a round was one, a bonus to a skill of choice was another, etc.
I've also got alternatives to bravery (culled from various archetypes). Extra AoOs would be too much of a power increase for that IMO. But I've also seen AoOs abused to good effect which is why I've removed their potency in my proposed rules (I've also removed the Dex requirement as well to avoid pushing everyone into high Dex builds).
Here's another potential Barbarian advanced training option:
Brutal Strike: When you make an attack with a two-handed weapon you deal double your strength modifier in damage (instead of 1.5 times). Each additional time you take this increase the strength damage bonus by the same amount each time (so 2.5 times strength damage the second time this is chosen and 3 times strength damage the third time this is chosen).
This could either be in addition to the current barbarian options or in place of Vital Strike.
Some more potential advanced training options (nothing has been mathed out, this is just concepts at this point).
Barbarian Advanced Training: At 6th level a barbarian may select one of the following advanced training options. A barbarian may choose an additional advanced training option at 11th level and 16th level.
Unbreakable: When raging you gain X DR/- (this stacks with any other DR/-). Each time you take this increase your DR by X.
Cleric Advanced Training: At 6th level a cleric may select one of the following advanced training options. A cleric may choose an additional advanced training option at 11th level and 16th level.
Extra Attack: Same as the fighter and rogue.
Improved Spellcasting: You gain 1 additional spell slot for each spell level you can currently cast. A cleric can take this multiple times.
Improved Healing: When you cast a spell that restores HP you heal 1.5 times the normal amount. You can take this multiple times, increasing the amount healed by half each time (so 2 times the second time and 2.5 times the third time). This stacks with the empower metamagic feat, but both are applied before determining how much is healed (so the first time this is chosen an empowered cure light wounds would provide 2 times the healing, the second time this is chosen it would provide 2.5 times the healing, etc).
Wizard Advanced Training: At 6th level a wizard may select one of the following advanced training options. A wizard may choose an additional advanced training option at 11th level and 16th level.
Improved Spellcasting: A wizard gains 1 additional spell slot for each spell level he can currently cast. A wizard can take this multiple times.
Improved Arcane Reserve: A wizard can use his arcane reserve X times per day. A wizard can select this multiple times, increasing the number of times he can use his arcane reserve by X each time.
Improved Familiar: You gain an improved familiar from the following list: X, Y or Z. Your familiar has the stats of the improved familiar. In addition it can also XXXX. Each time you take this option the familiar improves by XXXXX.
Sorcerer Advanced Training: At 6th level a sorcerer may select one of the following advanced training options. A sorcerer may choose an additional advanced training option at 11th level and 16th level.
Improved Spellcasting: A sorcerer gains 1 additional spell slot for each spell level he can currently cast. A sorcerer can take this multiple times.
Spell Mastery: Choose 1 spell you already know. A sorcerer can apply metamagic feats that he knows to the spell and decrease the spell slot level by X (minimum equal to the spell slot level the spell normally has). A sorcerer must still increase the casting time when applying metamagic feats to spells. At each new sorcerer level you can change the spell this applies to.
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I'm aiming for 3 options per class with as many unique options as possible.
The improved spellcasting option would necessitate reducing the number of spells handed out to the wizard (and consequently other ninth level spellcasters) as the revised wizard is already pretty balanced against the revised fighter. However it does allow for other options to be more potent such as their arcane reserve (which works same as the arcane bond for standard wizards) or improved familiar can become quite beefy given it's requiring significant sacrifices in the number of spell slots the wizard gets.
This could also be used to let the bard rob the magus of some of it's tricks and combine the magus and bard in that way (or they might remain separate classes if you were so inclined).
So here is the new character creation table with the advanced training options included. By making them PC level dependent instead of class dependent. At this point I'm inclined to say if you have levels in a class you can select any of it's advanced options.
Here's the new revision of the Rogue. Most of the rogue talents have stayed the same. The only significant change was for resiliency which I've boosted from working once per day to instead be 4 times per day. The other big change is reliable sneak attack which now requires you to give up half of your sneak attack dice.
I've reduced the number of basic options a rogue gets to 3 (bringing them inline with all the other classes) and increased their skill points to 10 + int mod. I've also removed evasion and uncanny dodge as class features and made them rogue talents instead. I've also limited sneak attack to once per round. In compensation for these limitations rogues get to progress with iterative attacks at the same levels as a fighter (6th, 11th and 16th).
I'll build a few different rogues with the revised rules and see how they stack up compared to revised fighters.
Rogue has been updated again into the new format.
Basic and Advanced training has been completely removed from the class sections and into it's own chapter. you can see it here.
It's pretty much just the same basic training, although one big change is that general training scales with character level rather than class level. The logic for this change is if +2 skill points per level is equal to heavy armor proficiency then why shouldn't you get those +2 skill points for 20 levels, just like you get heavy armor proficiency for 20 levels. Also if a basic training option gives a bonus that scales with level (such as uncanny dodge) you can stack levels for any class that is associated with that basic training option (like uncanny dodge) to determine the full benefit you get. This helps encourage multiclassing for those classes.
Individual options have also changed. Ninja and Samurai weapon training have been consolidated to Eastern Weapon Training and applies to Fighters, Monks and Rogues. Evasion is now a basic training option available to both rogues and monks. What this means is that these classes can start with evasion at level 1. Uncanny dodge is the same situation for barbarians and rogues.
Armor proficiencies are something any class (except monk, sorcerer and wizard) can choose (druids cap out at medium armor proficiency). Martial Weapon Training is also a basic training option for some classes (for those who multiclass into those classes). Rogues can now start with martial weapon proficiency rather than just being restricted to simple weapons and a handful of martial weapons.
Advanced Training is also included (only the Rogue options at this point). Extra Attack is available to all classes except rogues and wizards, however it requires BAB +6 before you can select it (this stops Wizard 5/Fighter 1 from getting Extra Attack at level 6). What this means is that 3/4 BAB classes don't get an iterative attack until 11th level. But there are options that will be available for them that will increase their damage potential to the same amount that a secondary attack would.
Generally applicable rules are often a good idea and I do like reading random rule variants. :)
I've sorted out the different PDFs in the style of Kirthfinder.
I've added the draft versions of the advanced training options in this thread. I've also added in a draft cohort advanced training option only for fighters. It's their version of an animal companion.
In addition I've added Toughness (that can be taken multiple times) and the Barbarian fast movement feat (that almost any class can take).
The biggest change, however, is the character advancement table (under Class - Introduction). Characters no longer get a feat at level 1 or odd levels. Instead they only get them at even levels (level 2, 4, 6, etc). Ability Score boosts occur at level 5 and then every 4 levels thereafter.
This has the effect of you lose a feat at level 1 and you only get 4 boosts to your ability scores instead of 3. To counteract this all characters get 4 basic training options with a universal option being 1 bonus feat. If characters select this they ultimately get 11 feats. For this, I have created a 20th level feat that gives characters a +1 bonus to a single ability score. I figure almost nobody will choose it, but if someone REALLY wanted 5 ability score boosts then they can have it at the same level they would have ordinarily gotten it.
These revisions mean that all characters get something at every level except for 1 (where they get 4 basic training options), level 3 (where they get their class expertise), level 7, level 15 and level 19. These are also "dead" levels in PF1e too so there's no actual difference there.
The reason for this is I wanted to revise the fighter. Paladins, Rogues and Wizards all start getting their talents on an even level (level 2 for rogues and paladins, level 4 for wizards). Fighters were the exception so I've reversed when everyone else gets feats in order to reverse when the fighter gets them as well so they get a level 2 class talent just like the other classes. Now that doesn't mean all characters will be restricted to class talents at even levels (Paladins for example don't get it on that path). But it does help make them a bit more consistent. Also standard Pathfinder changes when feats were gotten compared to 3.5e, so I figure I can do the same thing.
Generally applicable rules are often a good idea and I do like reading random rule variants. :)
Thanks :) Glad you like the thread. Hopefully the link I've included in this post makes it easier to track the different options. I've split them up into different PDFs as I want them to be as modular as possible. Someone could replace PF races with my revised races and backgrounds and use everything else from standard Pathfinder. Or you could replace the PF rogue with my revised rogue and you'll find the rogue is pretty much completely compatible with standard Pathfinder. Or alternatively you could replace iterative attacks with advanced training options and you're good to go.
Given that you're granting only four ability boosts over 20 levels, rather than five, I was trying to find exactly what you receive for each boost, but I didn't succeed.
Given that you're granting only four ability boosts over 20 levels, rather than five, I was trying to find exactly what you receive for each boost, but I didn't succeed.
It's +1 per ability boost. However it's only 4 mandatory. It's 4 + 1 optional one at 20th level.
Standard Pathfinder rules you get:
* 10 feats
* 5 increases of +1 ability scores
In my version you get:
* 4 class training slots (one of which can be taken swapped out for a feat)
* 10 feats (one of which can be swapped out for +1 ability score increase). I just realised this hasn't been included in the documents yet. It's just +1 to a single ability score but you have to be 20th level to select the feat.
* 4 ability score increases
So, if you really wanted to, you could recreate the same feat selection and ability score boosts from standard Pathfinder with my revised rules and have exactly 10 feats and 5 ability score boosts.
I recreated the fighter I had with the updated bonus feat and fighter talent selection. I have removed one of the fighter archetypes and just put it's unique abilities in as fighter talents. I've also included the "Brawler" archetype which steals the ACG brawler's martial flexibility.
I ran through the math a bit closer on the Rogue and it doesn't work out. The rogue was too underpowered. I have bumped up the sneak attack dice to +2d6 at 1st level. I've also introduced rogue tricks. One such rogue trick is to get +1d6 sneak attack damage, another is to trade out sneak attack for a bonus to your to hit and then I put a couple of rogue talents into the rogue trick section.
I've removed the Scout archetype from the Rogue and just put the one unique ability it had in as a Rogue talent. I instead incorporated the Shadow Dancer as an archetype. It gets a paired down list of what the Prestige Class shadowdancer gets. However just as the Shadowdancer doesn't get sneak attack, this archetype swaps out some of the Rogue's sneak attack. A nice side effect of this is that you could have a Rogue with both the Ninja and the Shadow Dancer archetypes.
Finally some of the Class Training has been updated. "Thug Weapons" has now been replaced with Martial Weapon Proficiency. This combined with the limitation of sneak attack working once per round lets a two-handed rogue be just as effective as a TWFing rogue. Poison Use and Trapfinding is also available to Rangers now (referencing the Trapper ranger archetype from Ultimate Magic). I've also done the math a bit more on the Improved Sneak Attack and now it grants an additional +2d6 sneak attack along with an extra use of sneak attack per round.
Oh, I also have my house rules for ability scores detailed in the 0. Introduction PDF. Basically there's no buy downs and you have a starting array of 8, 10, 10, 10, 10 and 10 and the maximum score you can buy is 16 (before racial modifiers). In my experience the only class that really buys an 18 is wizard and I'm okay with toning down the wizard.
You have a few copy-pasting issues with ninja/rogue in the rogue PDF. You also refer to uncanny dodge as a talent, when you've reclassified it as a basic training option.
It might be an idea to mention in each class PDF which basic trainings are the vanilla choices, just for ease of use.
I understand why you might want to nerf the wizard (only six schools known, or four plus a specialisation until at least 6th), but why did you nerf the paladin?
I like the extra options, but a paladin with the standard divine grace/divine health can't remove disease until at least 8th, let alone his other mercy options, and even if I've missed an option to use advanced training picks on class talents, you're still passing up extra attacks to get your mercies on schedule.
Making broader base classes that obviate the need for archetypes was a major design goal of mine as well, but I went a step further and tried to impart some degree of narrative power to the non-full-casters, so that they no longer feel like second-class citizens. You can see what I've done HERE (click on "Classes").
You have a few copy-pasting issues with ninja/rogue in the rogue PDF. You also refer to uncanny dodge as a talent, when you've reclassified it as a basic training option.
It might be an idea to mention in each class PDF which basic trainings are the vanilla choices, just for ease of use.
Thanks. I'll give the rogue another run through and look for typos. I also spotted a typo in the paladin class.
Good suggestion on listing the basic options for each class. I'll probably stick it under the Proficiencies heading.
I understand why you might want to nerf the wizard (only six schools known, or four plus a specialisation until at least 6th), but why did you nerf the paladin?
I like the extra options, but a paladin with the standard divine grace/divine health can't remove disease until at least 8th, let alone his other mercy options, and even if I've missed an option to use advanced training picks on class talents, you're still passing up extra attacks to get your mercies on schedule.
wizard should have six schools: 2 from the base wizard class, and then four from 2xbasic training and then either school Specialisation or another 2 schools (remember if you multiclass you get zero basic training options until 4th level in the new class so a fighter who multiclassed into wizard only knows 2 schools).
The Paladin is a first pass attempt and could definitely benefit from a closer look and perhaps a more radical reworking. Full BAB classes get effectively 1 feat per level. So the reworking of class features is to try to place a value in terms of # of feats each ability is worth. Getting 1/2 level + CHA mod castings of remove disease a day is a pretty damn good class feature for a feat equivalent. Delaying it to 8th level doesn't seem unreasonable. Although it's only delayed if the player chooses to get other abilities first.
There can definitely be more work done on the Paladin. For example I'm planning on making divine bond an advanced class training option. After I look at the cleric I will revisit the Paladin.
Making broader base classes that obviate the need for archetypes was a major design goal of mine as well, but I went a step further and tried to impart some degree of narrative power to the non-full-casters, so that they no longer feel like second-class citizens. You can see what I've done HERE (click on "Classes").
I do like archetypes. But the more such things can be built into the base class, the more room archetypes have to do more extreme things.
I've had a look at your stuff before and it is definitely a much more intensive overhaul than I'm planning. I've considered more narrative abilities before but want to be a bit more careful in how they're introduced. One idea I've had is introducing a fighter only leadership feat (now that the cohort is separate) that in addition to granting followers and a stronghold, it grants a bonus to gather information checks as your stronghold causes people to come to you with information. This way it's effectively a skill synergy bonus with some fun flavorful stuff. But by having it be a feat rather than a class feature it's optional.
I missed the extra two schools in the wizard class. I am very wary of allowing the wizard to get lots of extra spell slots - that's the fastest way to power them up dramatically. I'd be more inclined to grant them extra reservoir slots or allow then to cast multiple copies of prepared spells (a la 5th Edition) instead.
I take it your referring to Improved Spellcasting that grants +1 spell slot per spell slot level? Given they're currently "on par" at least damage wise when it comes to the fighter (when certain assumptions are being used at least), the number of spell slots would be reduced by 3 per spell level by level 16 so that they can then take the Improved Spellcasting advanced training option three times and then be at an appropriate power level.
Then the trick is to give them alternative options that compensates for them having less spell slots per level (and by reducing the spell slots per level it gives me room to offer fairly powerful options).
You have a few copy-pasting issues with ninja/rogue in the rogue PDF. You also refer to uncanny dodge as a talent, when you've reclassified it as a basic training option.
These have been fixed.
It might be an idea to mention in each class PDF which basic trainings are the vanilla choices, just for ease of use.
I started to do this and decided against it. I'm considering rethinking my entire approach to the class training options, but for now I'm leaving it as is.
I missed the extra two schools in the wizard class. I am very wary of allowing the wizard to get lots of extra spell slots - that's the fastest way to power them up dramatically. I'd be more inclined to grant them extra reservoir slots or allow then to cast multiple copies of prepared spells (a la 5th Edition) instead.
I've tried reworking the math on this a fair few times now. I couldn't get it working. So I've decided to go with none of this. Instead I've decided to give them +2 to their spell DCs (with the name of this class training option being Spell Focus). However how magic items work now has to be rethought ;) Expect more work on this soon.
Well, it's clearly a work in progress, but I'm interested in seeing what you do with it. :)
Well, it's clearly a work in progress, but I'm interested in seeing what you do with it. :)
Most definitely.
So I mentioned I was moving away from classifying the basic class options as class specific and I've now done that in the latest version. Instead class options fall into one of four categories: General, Combat, Skill, Magic. If you meet the prerequisites then you can select any of the basic training options at 1st level. As you go up in level the options that are available to you change:
* Fighters can only choose Combat, General and Skill through their class talent Additional Class Training.
* Clerics can only choose Combat, General and Magic.
* Rogues can only choose General, Combat and Skill.
* Paladins can only choose General, Combat and Magic.
* Wizards can only choose General, Magic and Skill.
And so on and so forth (only the Rogue and Fighter pdfs have been updated to reflect the above). This stops a wizard from taking one level in fighter and then getting access to heavy armor proficiency through their wizard talents. Options are then gated behind prerequisites like must cast from the sorcerer/wizard spell list or must cast from the cleric spell list (which clerics and paladins do).
This has a few repercussions. Trapfinding, evasion and uncanny dodge all have restrictions as to which class levels count which are specified in a special section for each of them. I've also been able to limit animal companions for players. Improved familiar requires you to not have an animal companion or bonded mount. Same for the other two options. This way you don't get 1 player with 3 combat pets. Improved familiar is also still pretty much a wizard ability unless you get the familiar class feature through some other method.
Bonded Mount has changed slightly. It is now available to anyone who has a base attack bonus of +1, proficient in martial weapons and doesn't have an animal companion, etc. So this means that Paladins, Rangers and Fighters can all start with a bonded mount at level 1. A paladin can then (I'm going to say at 6th level) choose an advanced training option that allows them to turn it into a divine mount and give it special abilities normal horses can't get. A fighter on the other hand can choose to give his bonded mount more mundane abilities that still improves it's combat prowess.
Advanced training options haven't changed significantly. They aren't categorised as it's not relevant. I could though just for the sake of symmetry. A couple of them (Unbreakable and cohort) just blatantly require you to be 6th level in barbarian or fighter respectively. This does delay when a multiclassed character could choose those two options. But I wanted them to be very class specific so it doesn't seem like an undue burden to require 6 levels in either class.
I have revised the Class Training to now be called Core Training. Instead of Bonus Spells referencing a table, characters now instead gain 1 bonus spell per spell level (including 0th level) so long as their spellcasting score is high enough.
I have revised the wizard to take into account the fact my wizards now require a medallion of magical might (detailed in the Magic Items section under Wondrous Items). They still get bonus spells for a high INT score, but instead of being detailed in either the Ability Score section or the also taken away their bonus spells from a high INT score and made that a core training option and given all wizards (even multiclassed wizards) a bonus core training option. The are two reasons for this: (1) If you get spellcasting from multiple classes you only get bonus spells for a high casting stat from one of those classes (cutting down on the number of spells you get for multiclassing), (2) the main reason for this as I want to give clerics the option to either concentrate on combat and use magic as a secondary ability, or have clerics focus purely on spellcasting. As such clerics by default do not get bonus spells from a high wisdom score. So I've taken that logic over to wizards as well.
I have revised the rogue archetypes as the Ninja and Shadow Dancer were not compatible. They now are. Someone who takes both archetypes will only have 4 sneak attack dice, thus significantly reducing sneak attack on the rogue. I'm tempted to include a "Thug" archetype and replace sneak attack completely with +1 to weapon attacks at 1st level, Toughness at 3rd level, qualify for Extra Attack at 6th level without needing BAB +6 and Weapon Specialisation at 19th level.
Finally I've added the cleric class. The cleric only has proficiency in simple weapons and no proficiency in any armor or shields. Everything other than that is fairly standard. They get channel energy (although it is 1 + Wis mod instead of 3 + cha mod). They get one domain from their religion and then either the healing or death domain. Domain spells will be greatly expanded compared to what standard Pathfinder offers. Clerics also get to choose the spells associated with one of their domains and can spontaneously swap out their prepared spells for domain spells. They do not get a domain spell slot or bonus spell slot for a high Wisdom score.
The reason the cleric has had their spellcasting reduced and the reason they don't get armor proficiency or even their favoured weapon proficiency is I want to give people a wide choice of which type of cleric they play. They can use three of the four core training options (or all four) to either focus on spellcasting or focus on combat (or take a mixture). For example here's the options they could choose:
* Spellcaster cleric: Bonus spells (for a high WIS score), Serene Grace (monk's AC bonus), Domain training (for 1 extra domain), bonus feat.
* Combat cleric: Sacred weapon (stolen from the war priest), light armor proficiency, medium armor proficiency, heavy armor proficiency.
Then if you really want to give up your combat abilities, you can take the cloistered cleric archetype and gain wizard BAB and gain 1 extra spell slot per level (including 0th level).
I've also looted the Inquisitor and made him a cleric archetype. You lose channel energy for judgements and swap the healing/death domain for a different domain. There's also some unique inquisitor talents that you can optionally take as well. In return it gives the inquisitor 9th level spellcasting.
I haven't built a cleric (or inquisitor) or checked for balance. But this is the general idea and the exact bonuses granted by things can be tweaked as needed.
The cleric talents are largely taken from the cleric domain powers. I don't know if I would have the exact same domains as normal Pathfinder. It largely depends on whether I can find enough spells that reasonably belong to each domain or if I have to combine some domains to help fill out the domain spell list. But that'll have to wait until I finish working on the spells section.
In my atttempts to create a revised sorcerer, I came up with these revised rules for components. From the start I've wanted to incorporate psychic casters into the base rules for magic rather than as a tack-on. Here's how I've done it.
Casting Spells
Magic requires hand gestures (known as a somatic component) and phrases to be uttered (known as verbal components) in order to work. Casting a spell provokes an Attack of Opportunity if it has somatic components.
If a wizard wishes to remove either the verbal component or the somatic component they can replace one of these components with a material component associated with the spell. Unless the material component is in their hand the wizard must spend a move action to retrieve the component (which causes an Attack of Opportunity as normal). A spell component pouch has any inexpensive material components that a wizard might need.
Clerics can choose to present their holy symbol as a move action in place of either the verbal or somatic components. Presenting the holy symbol provokes an Attack of Opportunity.
Sorcerers can call upon their arcane bloodline while psychics can create a mental construct. Both of these require the spellcaster to center themselves as a move action that provokes an Attack of Opportunity. However by doing these things, the sorcerer and psychic are able to replace the verbal or somatic components associated with the spell.
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So in this way spells list the standard 3 material components (V, S, M). However a caster only needs to meet 2 of these material components. The psychic component comes in by replacing either the somatic or verbal component. Divine focus and material components come in for the same way.
A big reason was to get psychic components into the game in a way that makes sense. Not have a stupid rule about "all spells cause the air to shimmer around the caster". And to allow the Still Spell feat to actually avoid an Attack of Opportunity (which according to the standard rules it doesn't). I also wanted to get rid of the Eschew Material Components feat. It's not worth an entire feat IMO as it replicates a 5 gp item. The number of times I've seen a GM steal someone's spell component pouch would be less than 2. Having a feat for that is just silly. However I like the idea of sorcerers not needing material components, so the above rule achieves that without a useless feat. It also lets psychic casters have their thought component without causing air to appear around them. They still have to use either hand gestures or an arcane phrase so people know who it is that's casting the spell instead of a guy simply staring off into space.
Not much closer to how I want to handle the sorcerer though. The big change I'm making for casters is giving them class features that they can choose as they level up. I'm having more trouble how to handle the bloodline spell list and class features for sorcerers.