For throwing grenades at a target intersection you must hit an AC of 5. If your total attack roll is less than 5, then you miss and roll a 1d8 to determine the direction and then a 1d4 to determine how many squares away it lands.
Now if your total attack roll is -13 (throwing at maximum range increment, non-proficiency, negative strength, 0 BAB and a natural 1 roll) is the outcome exactly the same? Is there some part I'm missing that if you don't get a certain amount you don't even throw it past the first range increment?
With most grenades having a radius of 15ft, it seems the only way to actually miss with a grenade is by not only missing the attack roll but also rolling a 4 on the d4. With this in mind, what is the point in rolling for an attack with a grenade? You can just say you want it to go 100ft over there to hit a guy and it does. What is the point in grenade proficiency?
Grenade proficiency removes an attack penalty. The save DC on a grenade takes all penalties from the attack, but none of the bonuses. As a result, Weapon Focus (Grenades) does effectively nothing at all, but both Weapon Proficiency and Far Shot effectively make your grenades harder to dodge.
quindraco wrote: Grenade proficiency removes an attack penalty. The save DC on a grenade takes all penalties from the attack, but none of the bonuses. As a result, Weapon Focus (Grenades) does effectively nothing at all, but both Weapon Proficiency and Far Shot effectively make your grenades harder to dodge. I think most people just assume the enemy is going to make the save against a grenade. The DC's are pretty low and investing feats for a slightly better chance to do 2 or 3 more damage doesn't really seem worth it. Any thoughts on the increments of failure for attacking with a grenade?
Well, natural 1 in most games would result in rolling to confirm a critical failure, which if confirmed (your second attack is also a miss) would result in attacking yourself - or in a grenade's case, it going off in your hand. But that's technically a house rule, even if a very common one.
If you actually toss a grenade or other splash weapon and miss, you roll 1d8 for the direction it lands away from your actual target square, and then it lands 1 square away for each range increment you threw it. So if you threw it 10 range increments and miss, it is going to land 50 feet away in a random direction. Seems like a decent argument for proficiency to me.
Note that is RAW; to me, it seems weird that even missing by 1 would result in a huge variance in where it lands. So my house rule has always been it lands 1d4 squares away + 1 square away/2 points (rounded up) by which you miss, instead of instantly landing 10 squares away if you miss by 1.
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The primary problem with grenades is their cost (or effect relative to cost, if you prefer), not their DCs - their DCs are actually very, very good, because they scale faster than Spell DCs do. A level 20 grenade is DC 20+Dex - a Technomancer with Spell Focus can't hit you with anything worse than DC 18+Int, and he spent a feat on that. The secondary problem is that the DC takes all penalties without any bonuses, so the majority of buffs you can get your hands on won't apply - for example, as I mentioned, Weapon Focus (Grenades) does nothing except make it easier to guarantee your grenade doesn't scatter, which is usually insignificant. The tertiary problem is that you also can't apply Specialization to Grenades.
If you had an infinite budget, so money was no object, and assuming the thrower is an L20 Dex-spec with Dex mod +9 and Str mod +0 or better (hilariously, grenades add your str bonus to their hit roll, but your dex bonus to their save dc), throwing a Frag Grenade VIII at an L20 Combatant (DC 29 Save, Target has a +21 to Reflex Saves) without Evasion, that's 49.61 damage, on average (Explodes does not stop critting). If you took a penalty of -6 or more to that (saves always fail on a 1), that would drop to 38.59 damage. That's actually fine - it's on par with a Tempest Shock Caster with Specialization applied (actually a bit better), and it's not unwieldy (although it has severe problems with being used in a full attack, as you'll take the full attack penalties, with little to no way to mitigate them). The problem is the cost. That single grenade costs 216,000 credits - for 3.4 grenades, you can just buy the Caster, and shoot it more than 3.4 times. Grenades need to cost less or do more to be worth it.
How grenade arrows work is a mystery, because they don't have actual rules text explaining themselves, so I can't speak to them per se, but it seems unlikely that for most arrow-throwers or most grenades, grenade arrows are worth the severe up-charge. The only grenades I've seen that seem worth it are Smoke Grenades (which have no Reflex save to make) at any level, and the bottom-level Flash and Stickybomb grenades at the levels where you can use an L8 grenade launcher to uptick their save DCs without upticking their cost.
We've had a bunch of threads on the problems with non-Smoke grenades already - if you search through the forum, you'll find them.
Fuzzypaws wrote:
If you actually toss a grenade or other splash weapon and miss, you roll 1d8 for the direction it lands away from your actual target square, and then it lands 1 square away for each range increment you threw it. So if you threw it 10 range increments and miss, it is going to land 50 feet away in a random direction. Seems like a decent argument for proficiency to me.
Note that is RAW; to me, it seems weird that even missing by 1 would result in a huge variance in where it lands. So my house rule has always been it lands 1d4 squares away + 1 square away/2 points (rounded up) by which you miss, instead of instantly landing 10 squares away if you miss by 1.
This is sort of what I figured, some sort of possible failure chance. Like it works for every other thing in RPGs, if your outcome is really low, you fail at the attempt. With grenades I can always target a guy 100ft away and always hit him as long as I don't roll a 4 on a d4.. That's just weird.
Do you have a link for your first bit? I can't find that rule anywhere.
quindraco wrote: The primary problem with grenades is their cost... Yeah I kind've bundled all of the issues of grenades when I mentioned their DC's are low. They are low because buying grenades of an appropriate level to your character is never worth the credit investment (unless of course you're playing in an infinite wealth game). So if you're not a Dex-based character, enemies are always going to pass their saves. It is hilarious that the attack roll is strength based to get the two classes that get proficiency with grenades all excited at a ranged option (Solider and Mechanic) then mock them with making the DC's Dex based..
Agreed that grenades need to cost less, I'm not sure if they need to do more, but I do feel that they need to have an attack roll that has a possibility of failing beyond an arbitrary d4. It just seems weird that a 1st level caster with negative strength, no proficiency, no base attack bonus can always hit their target 100ft away without rolling.
Hmmm...I see your point regarding proficency and mods to hit. I suppose the main thing is if you have allies near the target. That random square thing could be deadly if you can't rely on hitting the target from a certain side.
The other end is that if the target opponent has Evasion (Ex) and penalties to your attack roll reduce the DC of the explosion, you may find grenades rather useless for heavily penalized characters to shoot at certain opponents.
Regarding cost, I think their cost is fine, at least compared to other weapons. Their damage output is rather high and if they were also really cheap, no one would ever use any other weapons. I mean, you basically don't need to hit, easy to switch damage types, you can fire as quick as you can draw, with multiple attack penalties being rather minimal given no need to really hit the target.
That soldier Bombard fighting style is the good way to get free grenades of your level (they basically have a free grenade at the start of combat). I think every other class is going to be more tactical in grenade use, saving them for the right moment, or just rely on cheaper, low level grenades.
In general, given the cost of weaponry, I don't think having a weapon of your level is going to be very common for most classes as you level up. Just better things to buy than getting a new weapon every level, despite their being a slightly better weapon availible at every level. Spell casters especially.
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Kiniticyst wrote: Agreed that grenades need to cost less, I'm not sure if they need to do more, but I do feel that they need to have an attack roll that has a possibility of failing beyond an arbitrary d4. It just seems weird that a 1st level caster with negative strength, no proficiency, no base attack bonus can always hit their target 100ft away without rolling. Well, you'd need a very big grenade - maximum possible scatter is 20 feet in the wrong direction, so you'd need a 25 foot radius grenade, which is difficult to get your hands on as a 1st level caster.
I think it would have been far saner to:
- Make the range of thrown weapons depend on the thrower's strength, modified by the weapon, of course. One example way to do that could be <weapon constant> + <str mod>*5.
- Make scatter a function of range, so the farther you throw it, the worse the potential scatter. One example way to do that could have been to roll 1d4 per range increment to the target, and total that for scatter.
quindraco wrote:
- Make the range of thrown weapons depend on the thrower's strength, modified by the weapon, of course. One example way to do that could be <weapon constant> + <str mod>*5.
- Make scatter a function of range, so the farther you throw it, the worse the potential scatter. One example way to do that could have been to roll 1d4 per range increment to the target, and total that for scatter.
More houserules? Going to have to move the thread if you keep suggesting home brew rules.
<weapon constant> + <str mod>*5 is what the Bombard Fighting Style does for grenades at 1st level. They also get a free grenade of their level or less for every combat (technically a free grenade that requires 10 minutes of creation, but that's basically every combat).
At 5th level, they can throw 1 grenade as a full-round action and add their Str bonus as bonus damage to all targets.
If going for a grenade user, the Soldier Bombard is by far the best choice.
Kiniticyst wrote: Now if your total attack roll is -13 (throwing at maximum range increment, non-proficiency, negative strength, 0 BAB and a natural 1 roll) is the outcome exactly the same? Is there some part I'm missing that if you don't get a certain amount you don't even throw it past the first range increment? Thinking about it more.
Str is used for the attack roll, but Dex is used for the DC. DC= <1/2 Item level> + <Dex Mod> + 10.
So with +0 Str and +0 dex, +0 BAB and non-proficency, a level 1 Frag Grenade is hitting at -4 and is a DC 6 reflex for half damage, and that's just at the first range increment.
Damage on a 1st level frage grenade is 1d6P to a 15ft radius. Not sure if Starfinder has Pathfinder's minimum damage rule (damage is always at least 1 in pathfinder, before DR).
So even if you hit, with 10 Str and 10 Dex and no BAB, the DC for half damage is substancially low where it probably isn't worth the cost of the grenade if you lack proficency.
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