The change for magical staves, namely giving them a recharge option, is great. But I noticed one issue that ought to be addressed because it will start causing head-scratching at higher-levels of play. The sentence on page 106 of the alpha 2 document "Imbuing a staff with this power restores
one charge to the staff, but the caster must forgo one prepared spell or spell slot of the highest level he can cast." should be reworded to read "Imbuing a staff with this power restores one charge to the staff, but the caster must forgo one prepared spell or spell slot of the highest level he can cast or the highest-level spell contained within the staff, whichever is lower."
It just doesn't seem right to me that a 17th-level wizard who, for one reason or another likes having his staff of fire around, should be forced to forgo a 9th-level spell slot today to recharge a fireball he cast yesterday.
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I don't see anything wrong with the way it is. The reasoning I see behind it is that staves are one of the very few magic items that grow with you since they use your caster level and the like. Since they take your power into consideration, I don't have a problem with their recharge being based off of what your power can be.
I can't really picture it coming up that often however, I would imagine that its unlikely that someone is going to be recharging a staff on a day they were going out adventuring anyway, unless you have a staff with a higher level spell in it than you can cast. Otherwise, its almost more practical to prep the spell yourself.
-Tarlane
I think they need to be one for one for rechanging and have more total charges
Personally, I think it should be on an equal-level basis.
Take a Staff of Fire for example. The staff can cast Burning Hands (1 charge), Fireball (2 charges), and Wall of Fire (3 charges). I think if the caster uses a 1st level spell to recharge the item, it gets 1 charge. If he uses a 3rd level spell - 2 charges, and a 4th level spell gives it 3 charges. After all, that is the level of spells being cast by the staff, why should the same spell power (i.e. level of spell) recharge the same number of charges as used by the spell?
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It just doesn't seem right to me that a 17th-level wizard who, for one reason or another likes having his staff of fire around, should be forced to forgo a 9th-level spell slot today to recharge a fireball he cast yesterday.
I'm against the highest level spell slot as well.
Why should I trade a 9th level spellslot for a fireball charge? I could just prepare Wish and use it to cast fireball... if I need a fireball. I'm not sure a 1:1 trade is the solution either. I would say the spell's level +1.. with level 9 spells needing a 9th and 1st.
Firstly:
I have no problem with either version: highest spell level in the staff, or highest spell level you can cast. Both make a certain amount of sense to me.
That having been said however; It should be one of those two. There is a big push in PRPG towards reducing unnecessary record keeping. They are trying to slim things down. Check the skill lists, if you don't believe me.
Even the new staff rules are a way to trim things down. How many charges are left? pick a number between 1 and 5. It's rechargeable anyway, so it's not that big a deal finding one with 1 charge left.
However, if you introduce a mechanic that says "if you don't recharge it with high enough level spell, you can't use those spells" then you introduce into the game, and item that has a highly variable mechanic.
The DM rolls treasure. (blasphemy I know- but some still do that) And a staff of Fire comes up. 1-5 charges? check. Who refilled it last?
How many of its current charges, are "lesser" and how many are "greater"?
Even if they handwave it and say all are "greater" charges- it still leaves the player with the task of remembering (i.e. writing down) what spell level was given for each charge, and in what order.
It's just messy to keep track of, and I personally think it doesn't add enough to the game to warrant.
As to what the OP originally said:
I personally think the better option would be to have it be a spell the same level as the highest in the staff. Why? Because that is what's required to create the staff in the first place. It shouldn't require /more/ to recharge it than it did to create it in the first place. But it wouldn't really bother me if it was max spell the wizard had. (simply because imo, rechargeable staves are just that neat: even with so few charges.)
Just my .02
-S
Wasn't there a consensus already that this rules is broken?
The 20th level Wizard would give his Staff of Meteor Swarm to his 1st level apprentice, as the apprentice only has to spend a 1st level spell to charge a 9th level staff.
Or an adventurer could buy a staff with a spell vastly superior to his own abilities, which he can recharge daily as long he's able to cast any spell at all. One level of wizard/bard/cleric/sorcer for 9th level spells. Uh-oh...
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The only reason I can see to require a wizard use their highest slot is that it is an artificial limit to the speed of recharging a staff. It's silly, however, that a wizard can recharge his staff 2-3/day at even levels, but only 1-2/day at odd levels, due to the changing number of available spells/day at his highest slot.
I believe that the rule is already in place for staves that you can only recharge one slot a day anyway, so even if you had more then one spell of your highest level then it won't help.
-Tarlane
Wasn't there a consensus already that this rules is broken?
The 20th level Wizard would give his Staff of Meteor Swarm to his 1st level apprentice, as the apprentice only has to spend a 1st level spell to charge a 9th level staff.
Or an adventurer could buy a staff with a spell vastly superior to his own abilities, which he can recharge daily as long he's able to cast any spell at all. One level of wizard/bard/cleric/sorcer for 9th level spells. Uh-oh...
Exactly. The mechanic, as written, begs to be abused. Heck, take the Leadership feat and you don't even need to use your cohort to recharge it - a level 1 bard minion can use his 0-level spell slot (which is his highest, at least using the pre-Alpha-3-unreleased Bard) to recharge a staff containing nothing but 9th level spells, then hand it right back to your character.
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Umm no a bard can't recharge a staff with only level 9 spells. The rules on page 106 for recharging spells say...
"Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff are on his spell list and he is capable of casting atleast one of the spells."
2 requirements there..
1. Your spell list must have one of the spells the staff has.
2. You can cast one of the spells the staff has.
Why doesn't a level 1 bard work..
1. A level 1 character isn't capable of casting level 9 spells.
2. A level 1 character will not have 19 charisma.
3. Bards don't get level 9 spells.
Reasons 1 and 2 apply to EVERY class trying to recharge a high level staff.
To go a step further.
A 17 level sorcerer with a charisma of 16 can NOT recharge a staff of level 9 spells because he can NOT cast ANY level 9 spells, even though the spells are on his spell list.
Until you can cast atleast 1 spell the staff can, you can't recharge it. That's the balance.
edited: to show examples
Umm no he can't. The rules on page 106 for recharging spells say...
"Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff are on his spell list and he is capable of casting atleast one of the spells."
A level 1 bard isn't capable of casting level 9 spells nor would many level 1 bards have a 19 charisma if you want to doubly show he's not capable of recharging it. And just for giggles, bards don't even get level 9 spells.. so good luck with that.
<shrug> so add prestidigitate (or mage hand, read magic, detect magic.... etc) to the spells the staff can cast. Presto, problem solved (or rather, created).
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<shrug> so add prestidigitate (or mage hand, read magic, detect magic.... etc) to the spells the staff can cast. Presto, problem solved (or rather, created).
Sure, problem solved and if I was your DM I'd just kill your cohorts in every encounter until you lost enough NPCs that no one for miles would be willing to work for you because it's suicide. Problem solved.
Sure, problem solved and if I was your DM I'd just kill your cohorts in every encounter until you lost enough NPCs that no one for miles would be willing to work for you because it's suicide. Problem solved.
You're ignoring the forest for the trees.
There IS a problem. Whether you choose to admit it, or whether you choose to punish your players past the point of them having a chance of having fun with the game, there's still a problem.
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There IS a problem. Whether you choose to admit it, or whether you choose to punish your players past the point of them having a chance of having fun with the game, there's still a problem.
Actually I don't find anything "fun" about using cohorts to exploit the rules. The "issue" presented above didn't mention a 0 level spell, it said a staff with all level 9 spells and I pointed out why it doesn't work. You modified the scenario to make it work.
The simplest solution is this, like many things in the game, recharging staves is worded poorly and Jason's intent was likely that staves only get recharged at a rate of 1 charge per day... opposed to staves being the village bicycle.
In any case, I'd love to see someone do the match for coming up with a staff with multiple level 9 spells that didn't use a whole lot of charges per spell. I'm sure it would cost a kingdom. And at point, I'd wonder what the DM was thinking. :)
The "issue" presented above didn't mention a 0 level spell, it said a staff with all level 9 spells and I pointed out why it doesn't work. You modified the scenario to make it work.
No, the ISSUE is that "highest level spell" is very easily exploitable. My example was less than perfect, but that's because I was trying to get fancy. A level 1 wizard and a staff with Wish, Meteor Swarm, Gate, and Identify on it still illustrates the gaping hole in the staff system.
The simplest solution is this, like many things in the game, recharging staves is worded poorly and Jason's intent was likely that staves only get recharged at a rate of 1 charge per day... opposed to staves being the village bicycle.
No, actually, this has nothing to do with only getting 1 charge a day (which, incidentally, is already the rule); your solution is no solution at all. It has everything to do with being able to make/buy a staff with several very powerful spells but still being able to recharge it by including a very weak spell on it. There needs to be a much more refined system for recharging staves - something like a point system (sacrifice X spell levels to recharge Y points) or at the very least a minimum and maximum spell level that can be used to recharge the staff.
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A level 18 Wizard with average INT can prepare 2 9th level spells. Soooo, let's say Meteor Swarm and Powerword: Kill for fun.
If I did it right...
400 x 9 x 18 = 64800
300 x 9 x 18 = 48600
64800 + 4860 = 113400
So 113,400gp plus whatever it costs to make a +1 staff.
Not bad.. considering the staff would take 114 days to make (or 228 if it's done "on the road.")
So who would be willing to part with it so the PC wizards could have it.. or what party would remain idle for 4 months while the wizard made this? Seems like a lot of downtime when you consider how much a party does in a week of in-game time. :)
edited: corrected number of days and rounded up by 1.
Your math for creation time is wrong.
A staff with three separate level 9 spells (that have no costly material components) that each cost 2 charges and a single level 1 spell (with no material components) that costs 1 charge, all at CL 17 (earliest he could make such a staff) costs 72,250 gold base price (36,125 actual), and takes 73 days to make - or 36,125 gold base price (18,062.5 actual) and 36 days if it's his Bonded item (which he can still pass off to a minion to recharge).
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A staff with three separate level 9 spells (that have no costly material components) that each cost 2 charges and a single level 1 spell (with no material components) that costs 1 charge, all at CL 17 (earliest he could make such a staff) costs 72,250 gold base price (36,125 actual), and takes 73 days to make - or 36,125 gold base price (18,062.5 actual) and 36 days if it's his Bonded item (which he can still pass off to a minion to recharge).
A CL17 needs to prepare 3 level 9 spells to do that (see page 114.) So unless he has an INT of 36 he can't make said staff.
Please show your math also, I'm intrigued on where you got 72,250 from.
A CL17 needs to prepare 3 level 9 spells to do that (see page 114.) So unless he has an INT of 36 he can't make said staff.
Please show your math also, I'm intrigued on where you got 72,250 from.
He could be level 100. You can create any magic item at a lower caster level than your maximum, as long as it meets the minimum required to cast the spells required.
Math:
(400g/2 for 2 charges to cast) * 9th level spell * CL 17 = 30,600
(400g/2 for 2 charges to cast * 75% for 2nd ability on a staff) * 9th level spell * CL 17 = 22,950
(400g/2 for 2 charges to cast * 50% for 3rd+ ability on a staff) * 9th level spell * CL 17 = 15,300
(400g * 50% for 3rd+ ability on a staff) * 1st level spell * CL 17 = 3,400
30,600 + 22,950 + 15,300 + 3,400 = 72,250 gold. You don't need to enchant it to a +1 weapon or anything like that; the materials cost for the staff itself is subsumed by making it a magical spell-casting staff.
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He could be level 100. You can create any magic item at a lower caster level than your maximum, as long as it meets the minimum required to cast the spells required.
That's not how it works anymore.
Item creation for staves specifically states "the level of the caster" not caster level.
Why is it the level of the caster now instead of caster level? Because the abilities of the staff are based on the person wielding the staff, not the person that made the staff. Wands are made and work the same way, level of the person making them is in the cost.
Though I see how you made the staff cheaper, you did 2 charge cost, I was going for 1 charge per spell to get the most from the staff.
Anyway, as I said, a level 17 wizard can't possible make the staff. :)
Item creation for staves specifically states "the level of the caster" not caster level.
So does item creation for wands, scrolls, and potions. Coincidentally, those are the only four types of magic items with variable caster levels. It's not a limiter, it's a simplification. The rules assume you want a max-CL item. At the start of the section, it specifically says you can choose to create the item at a lower caster level than your max.
The 3.5 DMG has the exact same language - both "level of the caster" and "you can make a magic item at a lower caster level than your maximum". It's not new.
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So it does, I stand corrected.
Still 73 days, aweful long time to make the party wait.. or worse, fast forward.
I don't know about everyone else, but the campaigns I play in, the PCs stagnate, the villains don't wait around. But then again, none of the people I've ever played with wasted time on creating magic items.. and since bond items can have effects added to them as you go, I don't see a PC Wizard spending all that time to create a bond item from scratch.
Particularly when bond item rules get amended so that the item is useless to anyone except the wizard bond to it. :P
@ SirUrsa
It's a really, really easy fix. Just change "one slot of the highest level you can cast" to "highest level of spell in the staff".
It's an exploit, and it can be fixed with a change of under a dozens word. The change doesn't hurt anyone except those who'd want to take advantage of this error in the system.
So what's the big discussion for?
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So what's the big discussion for?
The original dislike to this ability was, I'm a high level wizard and have a staff with lower level spells, why should I have to use a very higher level spell slot to recharge a lower level spell.
I lost track on how we went down the minions and exploitation track. :)
I'm against the whole "highest level of spell in the staff" though. Magic items as treasure usually exceed the spellcasting ability of spellcasters.
A Wizard doesn't get level 4 spells until level 7, a sorcerer level 8. I could see either getting a Staff of Fire before then. It doesn't seem fair that neither of them could recharge it because of level 4 Wall of Fire.
Granted, with the staff examples given in the DMG/PRPG, that can be a problem, as many of them combine very different spell levels into one item.
But as it's possible to create leaner, cleaner versions (e. g. a staff with only Fireball in it), that's not that big of a deal, I think.
And sorry if my previous answer sounded a bit snippy. Wasn't meant that way, but after reading it again, it sounds a bit unpleasant.
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But as it's possible to create leaner, cleaner versions (e. g. a staff with only Fireball in it), that's not that big of a deal, I think.
Indeed, it is possible. But then it's a lower level item, worth less, etc. and I personally don't want to create magic items as a DM that have no purpose other then being treasure for the PCs.. that's Paizo's job.
The rules should suit the items Paizo makes as well as items made in 3.5. If a DM or PC makes an item that's in conflict with those rules fine, that's for them to deal with at their table, but the rules should suit the broadest audience and continue to strive to be straight forward and simple.
Brett Blackwell wrote:
Take a Staff of Fire for example. The staff can cast Burning Hands (1 charge), Fireball (2 charges), and Wall of Fire (3 charges). I think if the caster uses a 1st level spell to recharge the item, it gets 1 charge. If he uses a 3rd level spell - 2 charges, and a 4th level spell gives it 3 charges.
I like this as a start, but it would require different recharge system for each staff, depending on what spells are in it. Instead, add a single sentence to each staff description- ' Reguires a level X spell to restore one charge.' That matches the 1-charge-restored-per-day mechanic.
Counter the minion recharge by having staves be 'attuned' by their users. Attuning limits who can recharge and who can use, and is done as part of memorizing spells for the day.
Counter low level characters with staves they can't recharge by allowing scrolls of the approiate level to take the place of the spell slot for the recharge. (note: i see a rogue with use magic device being able to recharge his looted staff this way- but it would take a lot of rolls- one to attune, one to use scroll, one more to cast with staff = as much explosive potential as the potion miscibility tables.)
Another thing missing from the staves is the cost of one with less charges in it. Should it still be worth the max because it's rechargeable? It surely should not be worth x/10 of the price, but unless it is explicitly said some poor GM will get hoodwinked into selling one for that.
Another thing missing from the staves is the cost of one with less charges in it. Should it still be worth the max because it's rechargeable? It surely should not be worth x/10 of the price, but unless it is explicitly said some poor GM will get hoodwinked into selling one for that.
If he can get hoodwinked w/this, than in all probability his players run rampant on a whole lot of other exploits that are really out of whack so it doesn't really matter that much in that campaign.