| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Provides total concealment only.
The rules tell you what is permissible, in this case totally obscuring vision in a 50' spread...nothing else. No choking, no invisibility, etc. If it did it would be called out. It's Obscuring Mist in a bottle, it uses the same language, etc.
Your interpretation is correct.
|
A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Smoke obscures vision, giving concealment (20% miss chance) to characters within it.
I concede I should research more before posting when fully awake.
The base spell used in construction is Pyrotechnics, the smoke cloud effect from the spell says:
Smoke Cloud: A stream of smoke billows out from the fire, forming a choking cloud that spreads 20 feet in all directions and lasts for 1 round per caster level. All sight, even darkvision, is ineffective in or through the cloud. All within the cloud take –4 penalties to Strength and Dexterity (Fortitude negates). These effects last for 1d4+1 rounds after the cloud dissipates or after the creature leaves the area of the cloud. Spell resistance does not apply.
It's Pyrotechnics (Smoke Cloud) in a bottle. The DC would be based off a 3rd level caster.
However it doesn't specifically call out any choking effect...
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Please do not give it abilities that it does not state it has, that it has never had.
If we start giving it a "a choking cloud" (something that it has NOT ever had sense it's creation in 1st Ed. days) then we are going to start seeing players using air bubble and other gimmicks to create something even worse. A portable, long lasting, gas cloud that the players can haul around with them and use over and over again? Please no...
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
just because the spell is used in it's creation does not mean it "casts" the spell when it is triggered.
Ring of Chameleon Power has Requirements Forge Ring, disguise self, invisibility; yet it does NOT make someone invisible.
Ring of Counterspells has Requirements Forge Ring, imbue with spell ability; but does not allow the casting of spells...
Belt of Dwarvenkind? Craft Wondrous Item, tongues, creator must be a dwarf; yet I can't speak Kellish when I wear it...
Bottle of Air? water breathing; ... Nope, it creates air, it doesn't give someone the ability to breath water. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to use it in "Airless Space" (going to be important for Starfinder?).
Bracelet of Friends? refuge; ... not even sure why that one is required.
etc. etc.
Again, just because the spell is used in it's creation does not mean it "casts" the spell when it is triggered. Magic items only do what they say they do - anything else is just House Rules.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Flagged for movement to the general rules forum.
From a PFS perspective, using this item falls into the "don't be a jerk" category. Just like obscuring mist, deeper darkness, and other effects that really mess with the battlefield you shouldn't use it if it is going to create an environment that is going to hamper the other players as much as the enemies. That's not fun for anyone but the person using it (who usually has a way to avoid the negatives).
From a "what does it do?" perspective the only thing you can do is look to see what smoke does in Pathfinder. 20% concealment and chance of choking. That's not "what does the item say it does?" (creates smoke) that's "what does smoke do?"
|
|
Flagged for movement to the general rules forum.
From a PFS perspective, using this item falls into the "don't be a jerk" category. Just like obscuring mist, deeper darkness, and other effects that really mess with the battlefield you shouldn't use it if it is going to create an environment that is going to hamper the other players as much as the enemies. That's not fun for anyone but you.
From a "what does it do?" perspective the only thing you can do is look to see what smoke does in Pathfinder. 20% concealment and chance of choking. That's not "what does the item say it does?" (creates smoke) that's "what does smoke do?"
ah... where did you get "20% concealment and chance of choking."? It doesn't say it does that. It says:
Description
This metal urn is identical in appearance to an efreeti bottle, except that it does nothing but smoke. The amount of smoke is great if the stopper is pulled out, pouring from the bottle and totally obscuring vision across a 50-foot spread in 1 round. If the bottle is left unstoppered, the smoke billows out another 10 feet per round until it has covered a 100-foot radius. This area remains smoke-filled until the eversmoking bottle is stoppered.
The bottle must be resealed by a command word, after which the smoke dissipates normally. a moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the smoke in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the smoke in 1 round.
it says: "...totally obscuring vision across a 50-foot spread in 1 round."
it does NOT say: " ... creating concealment and a choking cloud across a 50-foot spread in 1 round."
It totally obscures vision in it's area. That's all it says it does. Anything else is just House Rules.
This item has been around sense the early days (pre 1st edition days) and it was a cursed item then. Why are we changing it's abilities now?
Again, if we start giving it a "a choking cloud"/Portable "Stinking Cloud generator" (something that it has NOT ever had sense it's creation in 1st Ed. days) then we are going to start seeing players using air bubble and other gimmicks to create something even worse then it already is. I know I will. It'll be to good NOT to use.
|
|
For the people wanting it to have the effects of Pyrotechnics - because that's the spell used to create it...
Pyrotechnics was heavily nerfed when we made the shift to Pathfinder. One of the limiting nerfs was to change the duration of the smoke effect to 1 round per level. Like many other spells - we cut it's duration as a means of limiting it's power.
The Eversmoking Bottle... is Ever smoking, right? so, no duration. Unless we decide to limit the duration like we have for the Ring of Invisibility. Eversmoking Bottle has a caster level of 3rd. So... the Pyrotechnics smoke cloud it creates has a duration of 3 rounds? Nah. A better answer is, it just doesn't crate a Pyrotechnics smoke cloud. It doesn't create effects it doesn't say it creates. No choking cloud.
|
|
Flagged for movement to the general rules forum.
From a PFS perspective, using this item falls into the "don't be a jerk" category. Just like obscuring mist, deeper darkness, and other effects that really mess with the battlefield you shouldn't use it if it is going to create an environment that is going to hamper the other players as much as the enemies. That's not fun for anyone but the person using it (who usually has a way to avoid the negatives).
From a "what does it do?" perspective the only thing you can do is look to see what smoke does in Pathfinder. 20% concealment and chance of choking. That's not "what does the item say it does?" (creates smoke) that's "what does smoke do?"
Hi! I'm a Flame Dancer Bard... after 3rd level, when I sing, all my friends within 30' can see thru smoke (& fog, & flames, &... you get the idea).... and I have Lingering Performance to extend the time. (Sing for 1 round in 3). SO I guess I'm not in the "don't be a jerk" category, right?
OH! and I even have a wand of air bubble and several Oil of air bubbles for those times I get to use my pyrotechnics spell! Get a pyrotechnics in a bottle? Really? WOW!
Have a nice day!
|
|
Flagged for movement to the general rules forum.
From a PFS perspective, using this item falls into the "don't be a jerk" category. Just like obscuring mist, deeper darkness, and other effects that really mess with the battlefield you shouldn't use it if it is going to create an environment that is going to hamper the other players as much as the enemies. That's not fun for anyone but you.
From a "what does it do?" perspective the only thing you can do is look to see what smoke does in Pathfinder. 20% concealment and chance of choking. That's not "what does the item say it does?" (creates smoke) that's "what does smoke do?"
ah... where did you get "20% concealment and chance of choking."? It doesn't say it does that. It says:
Description
This metal urn is identical in appearance to an efreeti bottle, except that it does nothing but smoke. The amount of smoke is great if the stopper is pulled out, pouring from the bottle and totally obscuring vision across a 50-foot spread in 1 round. If the bottle is left unstoppered, the smoke billows out another 10 feet per round until it has covered a 100-foot radius. This area remains smoke-filled until the eversmoking bottle is stoppered.
The bottle must be resealed by a command word, after which the smoke dissipates normally. a moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the smoke in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the smoke in 1 round.
I got it from the Core Rulebook. (Follow the link.) "What happens in smoke?" is in the same section as "what happens when you fall?" or "what happens when you touch lava?"
A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Smoke obscures vision, giving concealment (20% miss chance) to characters within it.
I do agree that the item says "totally obscures vision" which is different than the general smoke rules.
|
Please do not give it abilities that it does not state it has, that it has never had.
If we start giving it a "a choking cloud" (something that it has NOT ever had sense it's creation in 1st Ed. days)
So we should ignore changes Pathfinder made to the rules, because the item was different in past rule sets?
|
|
So we should ignore changes Pathfinder made to the rules, because the item was different in past rule sets?Please do not give it abilities that it does not state it has, that it has never had.
If we start giving it a "a choking cloud" (something that it has NOT ever had sense it's creation in 1st Ed. days)
no. But we don't want to add in changes that are House Rules either do we? If the rule was changed, it's was changed.
For example, Ring of Invisibility used to make you invisible when you put it on. Now? you have to activate it with a command word and it only lasts 3 minutes.
Potions of Healing used to heal 2d4 points of damage. Now they are "Spells in a Bottle" because the rules on how potions work were changed.
If we change the rules we should at least tell the players the change right?
|
|
Flagged for movement to the general rules forum.
From a PFS perspective, using this item falls into the "don't be a jerk" category. Just like obscuring mist, deeper darkness, and other effects that really mess with the battlefield you shouldn't use it if it is going to create an environment that is going to hamper the other players as much as the enemies. That's not fun for anyone but you.
From a "what does it do?" perspective the only thing you can do is look to see what smoke does in Pathfinder. 20% concealment and chance of choking. That's not "what does the item say it does?" (creates smoke) that's "what does smoke do?"
ah... where did you get "20% concealment and chance of choking."? It doesn't say it does that. It says:
Description
This metal urn is identical in appearance to an efreeti bottle, except that it does nothing but smoke. The amount of smoke is great if the stopper is pulled out, pouring from the bottle and totally obscuring vision across a 50-foot spread in 1 round. If the bottle is left unstoppered, the smoke billows out another 10 feet per round until it has covered a 100-foot radius. This area remains smoke-filled until the eversmoking bottle is stoppered.
The bottle must be resealed by a command word, after which the smoke dissipates normally. a moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the smoke in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the smoke in 1 round.
I got it from the Core Rulebook. (Follow the link.) "What happens in smoke?" is in the same section as "what happens when you fall?" or "what happens when you touch lava?"
A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage....
darn it, auto trimmed the part I need to reference...
"I got it from the Core Rulebook. (Follow the link.) "What happens in smoke?" is in the same section as "what happens when you fall?" or "what happens when you touch lava?" "
do you also give this "choking and coughing" condition to the smoke created by Smoke Sticks? or the other alchemical items normally used to obscure vision? do they also cause "choking and coughing" condition?
As a player this House Rule doesn't really matter that much to me. It gives me another weapon to use on the bad guys. (Once we get past the "gotcha" part of the change I mean. Once the Player knows that the Judge has added to the effects of the item.)
As a judge I am not so happy with it. Reminds me of the KOTDT episode where the "Orcish Throwing Turnip" was invented. And the players started weaponizing vegetables.
|
|
Yes.
So at your table I can cause choking and coughing in an enemy by dropping a smoke stick on them? Really? Wow... nah, I can't be understanding that correctly... what's the catch? what's the "Gotcha"?
edit: Wait, which post was this "yes" in reference to?
was this "yes" in answer to "If we change the rules we should at least tell the players the change right?" or "do you also give this "choking and coughing" condition to the smoke created by Smoke Sticks?"
|
|
The fact that it gives a save, is easily avoidable, and takes at least a full round (move action to draw, spark cantrip to ignite) to initiate?
Smoke Pellet
Price 25 gp; Weight —
This small clay sphere contains two alchemical substances separated by a thin barrier. When you break the sphere, the substances mingle and fill a 5-foot square with a cloud of foul but harmless yellow smoke. The smoke pellet acts as a smokestick, except the smoke only lasts for 1 round before dispersing. You may throw a smoke pellet as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet.
and
Smokestick
Price 20 gp; Weight 1/2 lb.
This alchemically treated wooden stick instantly creates thick, opaque smoke when burned. The smoke fills a 10-foot cube (treat the effect as a fog cloud spell, except that a moderate or stronger wind dissipates the smoke in 1 round). The stick is consumed after 1 round, and the smoke dissipates naturally after 1 minute.
so... I am confused... smoke pellets at your table can cause choking and coughing in an enemy? ("Fortitude save each round DC 15")
do you also use the part from pyrotechnics that the condition lasts for a 1d4+1 round after they leave the smoke cloud?
|
|
ah... I think I am just being Trolled at this point.
I'm going to just go away and wash my face and quit this thread.
Please mark it with an FAQ.
I really hope I don't get players at my table doing this in the future - it is bad enough getting players fighting swarms with butterfly nets now "the last judge said it works like that!"...
And as a player I am going to buy more Oil of air bubble and smoke creating items...just in cast...
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Flagged for movement to the general rules forum.
From a PFS perspective, using this item falls into the "don't be a jerk" category. Just like obscuring mist, deeper darkness, and other effects that really mess with the battlefield you shouldn't use it if it is going to create an environment that is going to hamper the other players as much as the enemies. That's not fun for anyone but the person using it (who usually has a way to avoid the negatives).
From a "what does it do?" perspective the only thing you can do is look to see what smoke does in Pathfinder. 20% concealment and chance of choking. That's not "what does the item say it does?" (creates smoke) that's "what does smoke do?"
Hi! I'm a Flame Dancer Bard... after 3rd level, when I sing, all my friends within 30' can see thru smoke (& fog, & flames, &... you get the idea).... and I have Lingering Performance to extend the time. (Sing for 1 round in 3). SO I guess I'm not in the "don't be a jerk" category, right?
OH! and I even have a wand of air bubble and several Oil of air bubbles for those times I get to use my pyrotechnics spell! Get a pyrotechnics in a bottle? Really? WOW!
Have a nice day!
I've had a player use exactly this combo at my table a few times, using the eversmoking bottle with Flame Dancer Bard. After a few games of it, everyone at the table agreed it was too broken and we retired the character.
|
|
I've had a player use exactly this combo at my table a few times, using the eversmoking bottle with Flame Dancer Bard. After a few games of it, everyone at the table agreed it was too broken and we retired the character.Flagged for movement to the general rules forum.
From a PFS perspective, using this item falls into the "don't be a jerk" category. Just like obscuring mist, deeper darkness, and other effects that really mess with the battlefield you shouldn't use it if it is going to create an environment that is going to hamper the other players as much as the enemies. That's not fun for anyone but the person using it (who usually has a way to avoid the negatives).
From a "what does it do?" perspective the only thing you can do is look to see what smoke does in Pathfinder. 20% concealment and chance of choking. That's not "what does the item say it does?" (creates smoke) that's "what does smoke do?"
Hi! I'm a Flame Dancer Bard... after 3rd level, when I sing, all my friends within 30' can see thru smoke (& fog, & flames, &... you get the idea).... and I have Lingering Performance to extend the time. (Sing for 1 round in 3). SO I guess I'm not in the "don't be a jerk" category, right?
OH! and I even have a wand of air bubble and several Oil of air bubbles for those times I get to use my pyrotechnics spell! Get a pyrotechnics in a bottle? Really? WOW!
Have a nice day!
...and that's the way to do it.
If it robs the fun from the table, don't run it.
"If it's not fun, don't do it".
question: just curious, did you give the E-Bottle the pyrotechnics smoke effect?
|
I flagged this for the Rules Questions Forum.
For PFS, we already have an "official" answer as to how it works.
|
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
|
I've had a player use exactly this combo at my table a few times, using the eversmoking bottle with Flame Dancer Bard. After a few games of it, everyone at the table agreed it was too broken and we retired the character....and that's the way to do it.
If it robs the fun from the table, don't run it.
"If it's not fun, don't do it".
question: just curious, did you give the E-Bottle the pyrotechnics smoke effect?
Nope, just the total concealment effect.