I'll try to keep the post as spoiler-free as possible, but no promises. It's also the Anniversary Edition. I don't know if that makes a difference in giving advice, but if it does, there you go.
So, we killed (what I assume is) the main target of the first book, and we're still in the depths of the stronghold where the BBEG inhabited.
Problem is, that fight just about took all of us out; even though we're leveling up to 4th, we're still in a bit of a bind and I don't know how to move forward.
The party composition consists of an altered Wyvaran Warpriest (has Greater SR instead of flight and tail attack, and uses a Bastard Sword + Light Shield), Half-Elf Inquisitor (no archetypes, "switch-hit" Bastard Sword user), Gnome Wizard (Illusionist specialization with Transmutation and Enchantment as opposed) with a Weasel familiar, Aasimar Paladin (who came sort-of late into the game, and is notorious for playing Paladins), and a Human Bolt Ace (which is me).
Compared to the other PCs, I'm probably the most optimized, and they don't particularly care for optimization, though I won't lie when I say that the Wizard's spells (like his Color Spray and Shocking Grasp) and his familiar (that Weasel causing the Grappled condition and pinning small-sized foes) has saved our butts more times than we can care to admit, despite his flavorful choices.
At this point, being right behind the Inquisitor's original position, I suggested that I use the corner for cover and shoot at them to draw them out and soften them up all at the same time, because charging into an enclosed room and provoking AoOs is practically suicide. Of course, the Paladin and Warpriest decide to be gallant heroes and charge in. Surprisingly, with all of the provocations and full attacks the enemies made, they missed those two (mostly because the GM rolled bad). The Inquisitor eventually came back to the fight after quenching the Cure Light Wounds potion I gave him (because he had none, and I didn't think I'd need the potion as much), quickly ran into the same room that the boss and minions were in, and they were in a fairly strong position to put the hurt down on the BBEG. In that following round, the Paladin's critical hit dealt significant damage and cut off the BBEG's extraneous limb, removing an attack option that the BBEG had. So far, everything was going smoothly.
But, that's when everything went south.
The boss had Cleric levels (3 of them, in fact), and was able to basically use Channel Negative Energy on all of us (including the weasel; he's important to our party's success, ironically enough). Although the first couple rounds was only 2 or 3 points of damage (when most all of us made the save), after that, we were taking consecutively more damage; some of us were wounded from the previous fights, and a lot of us had no more than 20 HP (the Wizard and Weasel, much less so). In addition, the boss' two minions have a howl that causes fear, meaning we have to make two saves (even if the DCs aren't so bad), or we're basically out of the fight.
While the Paladin and the Warpriest's Bless spell helps, I wasn't in range of the Paladin (being a Bolt Ace, I don't fancy close-quarters combat), meaning I lost out on a major bonus. Unfortunately, since I rolled bad on one of the saves (not even the Paladin's aura would've saved me), I act scared for three rounds, which the Wizard had to move foward, spend time creating an illusion of enclosed walls so I couldn't move anywhere (my Will Saves suck, and his Illusion DCs are high, meaning I wasn't really gonna go anywhere), and inadvertantly be in the line of fire (so that I'm not gone for 6+ rounds, because of how being Panicked/Frightened works). The only saving grace here is that, because I can't perceive the boss when they channel, I don't suffer its effects. (Good thing too, because I probably would've been dropped from the extra damage.)
After the boss channeled twice, the Weasel was killed before it could properly participate (because he failed the saves). Our ace in the hole (which could've stole the holy symbol from the boss without knowledge, thereby preventing future channels,) was gone (and according to the rules, it's going to take half our acquired loot just to revive the damn thing). Our front-liners were cut-off and had no self-sustaining ability left (no spell-power, no lay on hands, no fervor, no nothing), getting torn to shreds by the boss and the minions (even if they were adequately exchanging blows), I was half-dead, busy peeing my trousers in what I thought was a trapped room, while the Wizard was on his last legs from consecutively failing channel saving throws. Quite frankly, we thought we were gonna get a TPK, since we had no idea how many channels the boss had, or if the front-liners had the HP to spare.
But the Wizard had a plan.
One of the plans was a Burning Hands scroll (CL 3) he had. The other was his last spell slot for Color Spray. Considering we were fighting Evil Outsiders, and Outsiders we've fought in the past have had immunities akin to that of Undead, Oozes, Plants, and Elementals, as well as having Resistances to all sorts of elements, I thought both ideas were silly and wouldn't work. But the enemies were all lined up (and all of the allies were out of its effects), and quite frankly, even if he didn't do anything, we were gonna get TPK'd.
So, he decided to go with Color Spray, and it absolutely saved us. The Boss and one of the minions failed the save. The boss become stunned and dropped their Bastard Sword weapon (which the Warpriest proceeded to pick up from the boss's square and put his currently drawn one away), and the other minion became much easier to kill (since they were blinded and stunned for 3 rounds), while the minion that made the save wasn't really accomplishing anything with its future attacks.
After the boss' round of stunning was finished, they channeled once more, and dropped the Wizard to -6 HP (it was a high damage roll, and he failed the save). The Wizard still had a lot of power left in his wands, which means any chance we had to consistently whittle down and defeat the boss went up in smoke. He's also bleeding, and unless we get a Heal check on him, he'll die as well.
That's the bad news.
The good news, is that the boss ran out of channels right then and there, and has no weapon to properly utilize (a longbow won't be of much help), which means the boss isn't much of a threat. The minions, on the other hand, were able to block the front-liners from exiting the room, meaning they had to kill the minions to advance onto the boss.
The boss still had spells (they do have Cleric levels), and attempted to escape using Sanctuary (to not get pelted with bolts from myself or taken over by the front-liners), and Obscuring Mist (so that if we do attempt to attack, there'd be a miss chance involved, as well as it being difficult to see the boss).
Although the boss managed to Overrun me, the front-liners barely survived the attacks from the minions and defeated them. The Inquisitor's Expeditious Retreat was still going, and putting him a whole 20 feet faster than the boss. Eventually he caught up to the boss (who retreated up the stairs we came down from) and killed them with a solid hit.
I attempted to use Heal checks on the Wizard, but to no avail (I don't have ranks in it, meaning I only use my measly 2 Wisdom modifier, which means a 13 or higher is fairly difficult). Thankfully, the Paladin and Warpriest got to him in time, and he's stabilized.
So, after the battle (before we apply the benefits of leveling up), both our Paladin and Inquisitor are barely alive with 2 HP, our Warpriest is in the low teens at best. I'm at 7 HP, our Wizard's Weasel familiar is full-on dead (which means we'd have to tank half our WBL in order to get him back), and the Wizard himself is at -9 (stabilized, thankfully). We're completely out of resources; no spell slots, no fervor or lay on hands, no nothing. Our 5 wands don't help these matters any.
Even with the level up benefits, we're basically going to be using whatever we get just to maintain our party's overall health, leaving nothing to supplementing our ability to fight. The Paladin will presumably use his Lay On Hands on himself (for 12 HP), our Warpriest and Inquisitor will be using Cure Moderate Wounds on themselves (for 17 HP), and me and the Wizard will be stuck the way we are, barely alive (and one still being unconscious and unable to contribute).
As I've said before, we're neck-deep in this stronghold, and we still haven't fully explored it. Even with leveling up, I feel we're still in over our head in pursuing the stronghold further (because I doubt that boss we faced is the only thing that's left in here, since the GM is talking of even more encounters to face), but at least we have a better chance of retreating back to base to recoup our strength instead of trying to push forward and going for broke. The problem stems from what we lose out on if we do that, since I am certain this is a limited section available to us (meaning once we leave, the odds of coming back to finish the area is no longer possible due to changed circumstances).
While it may be obviously beneficial for us to retreat, would we miss out on anything crucial for doing so?
Also, how would you deal with the loss of a valuable party member as the Weasel, who's been able to grapple and pin the numerous small-sized creatures we've faced, and debuff/damage medium-sized creatures so we could succeed? Is he worth half our acquired loot just to get him back? (Because the other half is applied to getting a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, which means no loot for anybody other than what's been dropped so far.) Or would you tell the Wizard to suck it up and wait until Improved Familiar becomes available, to replace it for free with that feat?
You're basically asking for a spoiler: the potential risk vs. potential reward of the area in which you're adventuring. We can't answer your question without discussing what dangers (if any) are left and what treasures (if any) are left. My advice would be to make the decision in-character using the knowledge your character has, or ask your GM if spoilers are allowed.
Don't worry about the loot. The Wand and the Weasel (is that a pub?) sound like they're providing a lot of utility for the party.
I was once in a party of mostly sorcerers and wizards (in 3.5), where all the PCs dropped and the familiars killed all the kobolds. So I know how valuable familiars can be!
You're basically asking for a spoiler: the potential risk vs. potential reward of the area in which you're adventuring. We can't answer your question without discussing what dangers (if any) are left and what treasures (if any) are left. My advice would be to make the decision in-character using the knowledge your character has, or ask your GM if spoilers are allowed.
Not really. An objective answer can very easily convince me differently. Such as by saying "Well, if you rest, chances are you'll get a random CR-equivalent encounter that will likely result in a TPK." And again, the GM did say that there are most likely some more encounters left in the stronghold, which means that staying and resting is out-of-the-question for the PCs.
As for what decision our characters would make, that's not exactly easy to make, since that too is conditional (and what our PCs would actually know isn't exactly precise or accurate). Considering my PC urinated his pants during the boss fight, his vote would lean towards leaving (which is obviously biased), since he's overtly scared. The other PCs may instead value honor and glory (even in death) over retreat, since they are (mostly) holy warriors. The Wizard PC doesn't even get a vote, since he's unconscious.
At best, you're looking at splitting the party, which isn't exactly a good idea, no matter how you slice it.
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Not really. An objective answer can very easily convince me differently. Such as by saying "Well, if you rest, chances are you'll get a random CR-equivalent encounter that will likely result in a TPK." And again, the GM did say that there are most likely some more encounters left in the stronghold, which means that staying and resting is out-of-the-question for the PCs.
As for what decision our characters would make, that's not exactly easy to make, since that too is conditional (and what our PCs would actually know isn't exactly precise or accurate). Considering my PC urinated his pants during the boss fight, his vote would lean towards leaving (which is obviously biased), since he's overtly scared. The other PCs may instead value honor and glory (even in death) over retreat, since they are (mostly) holy warriors. The Wizard PC doesn't even get a vote, since he's unconscious.
At best, you're looking at splitting the party, which isn't exactly a good idea, no matter how you slice it.
I'm not trying to mean, I honestly don't understand your position. Your characters know their motivations for coming to this place, their current condition, and the threats they've faced so far. Based upon each character's personality and background, that's plenty of material to make an in-character decision. It's perfectly plausible and expected that different PCs will have different views, and thus . . . role-playing!
The only way to "objectively" answer your question about whether the group should stay or go is by spoiling you (even by telling you whether there are random encounters in that place, or what they're like), and then you're making metagame decisions rather than RP decisions. I guess if you're really desperate, you can spend $ 10 and download a PDF of that part of the adventure path, but I honestly think gaming is more fun for all around if people do what they think their character would do, not what metagame optimality would demand.
It's difficult to give advice without spoiling things, but a thing you should know is: Nualia is the boss fight in Thistletop, but she is not the hardest fight. My group nearly TPK in a fight AFTER Nualia, both when I played and when I GMed.
I'm struggling with the same issues about not giving spoilers, but will say that given your current injuries and lack of resources, any further CR-appropriate encounters could be catastrophic.
In the circumstances, there would be valid reasons for a strategic retreat, or possibly to try to fortify a position and rest to heal and regain spells, etc. Your DM would then have to decide on how that impacts what occurs if/when you return... or if you don't.
As for the familiar, it sounds like he/she was an important and valued partymember. I guess the party needs to decide on whether or not they were important and valuable enough to them to bring back, but I'd certainly favour making that decision from an RP standpoint over optimization. In the grand scheme of things (over the course of the AP), any cost to bring them back will end up being modest overall.
As an alternative, perhaps your DM might also be subtly prompted into tying the weasel's return into those Special Points you mentioned (it sounds like the wizard has been demonstrating some good tactics, so it could be very much justifiable).
As someone that has recently been through that area of Runelords, my suggestion is to retreat outside, make camp, and hope your GM is not a turd. Then level, heal, and hit it again to clear it out. Alternatively, retreat back to sandpoint, ask for healing from the church, and then hit it again the next morning. The loot probably isn't going anywhere, especially if you cleared the goblins, or at least cowed them into temporary submission.
Why do you think you won't be able to go back in if you leave?
You're basically asking for a spoiler: the potential risk vs. potential reward of the area in which you're adventuring. We can't answer your question without discussing what dangers (if any) are left and what treasures (if any) are left. My advice would be to make the decision in-character using the knowledge your character has, or ask your GM if spoilers are allowed.Not really. An objective answer can very easily convince me differently. Such as by saying "Well, if you rest, chances are you'll get a random CR-equivalent encounter that will likely result in a TPK." And again, the GM did say that there are most likely some more encounters left in the stronghold, which means that staying and resting is out-of-the-question for the PCs.
As for what decision our characters would make, that's not exactly easy to make, since that too is conditional (and what our PCs would actually know isn't exactly precise or accurate). Considering my PC urinated his pants during the boss fight, his vote would lean towards leaving (which is obviously biased), since he's overtly scared. The other PCs may instead value honor and glory (even in death) over retreat, since they are (mostly) holy warriors. The Wizard PC doesn't even get a vote, since he's unconscious.
At best, you're looking at splitting the party, which isn't exactly a good idea, no matter how you slice it.
There are so many problems here, I don't know where to start.
First, if anyone gives you meaningful information about the module to help you make the decision no matter how opaquely delivered, they are providing spoilers (definition: information you learned outside the game.) Asking for spoilers on a forum populated largely (but not exclusively) by GM's is not likely to get you far. Frankly, some of replies you've got are more helpful than your asking-for-spoilers-while-denying-you're-asking-for-spoilers question merits.
Second, if your group's decision making process is - "everyone votes on what to do and then does whatever they want regardless of the outcome" I do have some advice for you: flush the campaign now. Unless you like TPK's and a lot of new character creation. If when the going gets rough, the strongest characters will abandon the weakest, that's a party that won't survive. Wait did you say the pc's were evil? Gees, I thought there was a paladin...
Third, did I understand correctly? That, perhaps after leveling up, the group will have access to some healing - lay on hands and cure moderate wounds and the most likely outcome is that after it is deployed one pc will be deliberately left unconscious? Wait, and there's a paladin involved? And what is the plan for the unconscious character - is he being carried? What happens if a fight starts? Or is the wizard simply to be abandoned?
Fourth, random or wandering encounters are entirely the responsibility of the GM. If your group is on death's door and the GM drops a random encounter on you, he is a <word that rhymes with trick. With a capital D.> If his defense is "the module tells me to," he is a <word that rhymes with bitty> GM. So if a random encounter kills you, it means the GM wanted you dead and no information we can provide will help.
Most AP's (this one included) provide guidance on how occupants of a particular location react to an invasion by the pc's but that guidance is general and can't account for all kinds of variables. We have no idea what you left alive behind you so we can't even guess how survivors (if any) might respond. And we are just as unable to project how the complex would re-organize if you left and returned after recovering. It would be based on your GM's decisions about how the survivors react. You're almost certainly in a better position to guess that than we are.
Finally, you don't need spoilers to know what to do: leave. Unless you can guarantee you will not be disturbed while resting, leaving is superior. Why? Each area you retreat from is another area of potential encounters you leave behind. If you stay, anything left in the fortress or woodland can encounter you all night long. Once you're out of the fortress, those survivors probably won't be a problem for you. Ditto on the woodland area outside the fortress.
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Fourth, random or wandering encounters are entirely the responsibility of the GM. If your group is on death's door and the GM drops a random encounter on you, he is a <word that rhymes with trick. With a capital D.> If his defense is "the module tells me to," he is a <word that rhymes with bitty> GM. So if a random encounter kills you, it means the GM wanted you dead and no information we can provide will help.
Although I agree with much of your post, I think this is wrong and needlessly provocative. If the adventure path tells me to roll a random encounter chance ever 8 hours, I roll it. I don't adjust game difficulty based on how weak or tough the PCs are at any given moment. They know this about me, so they don't take it personally if something shows up that they're in poor shape to handle.
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Let me give you advice as if it were one of my characters in this situation:
"Wait, wait, wait! Stop arguing! We cleared everything behind us right?"
*chorus of nods*
"Alright, let's FALL BACK to the woodlands and find a place to hold down and rest. Come back tomorrow. If something that was here bugs out in the mean-time then fine. We stopped who we came here to stop. Everything else is gravy."
*shrug*, "If monsters are still here tomorrow we will be ready."
(The soundest advice I can give without spoiling things. I guess that advice goes to crap if you haven't cleared all of the area behind you though.)