Variant Gestalt E8 rules

[mekka2000]

Hello, after a lot of reading about gestalt, P6/P8, their advantages and their drawbacks, I tried to think about a system to make gestalt character in a P8 game, with interesting combinations, good versatibility, and not too much powerful because of combination of new classes and archetypes.
I got inspired by the variant multiclass from unchained.

Don't hesitate to criticize a lot, as long as we avoid critics about "gestalt" of "P8" :)
The could be mistakes and a few classes look too weak and need to be reworked (the ranger, for example)

Building A Variant Gestalt E8 Character
To make a 1st-level gestalt character, choose two classes, a primary class and a secondary class. (You can also choose any archetype for the primary class but you can’t combine two versions of the same class.) Build your character according to the following guidelines.

Hit Dice
Choose the larger Hit Die. A monk/sorcerer would use d8 as her Hit Die and have 8 hit points (plus Constitution modifier) at 1st level, for example.

Base Attack Bonus
Choose the better progression from the two classes.

Base Saving Throw Bonuses
For each save bonus, choose the better progression from the two classes. For example, a 1st-level variant gestalt fighter/wizard would have base saving throw bonuses of Fortitude +2, Reflex +0, Will +2—taking the good Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save from the wizard class.

Class Skills
Take the number of skill points gained per level from whichever class grants more skill points, and consider any skill on either class list as a class skill for the variant gestalt character. For example, a variant gestalt barbarian/bard would gain skill points per level equal to 6 + Int modifier and can purchase skills from both the barbarian and bard lists as class skills.

Class Features
A variant gestalt character gains the class features of its primary class and a few features of its secondary class at 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th levels.
Class- and ability-based restrictions (such as arcane spell failure chance and a druid’s prohibition on wearing metal armor) apply normally to a gestalt character, no matter what the other class is.

Occult, Psionics, Spheres of Power, Path of War classes must be primary classes and cannot be mixed.
These classes are too complex or too rich to be summarized into 4 abilities without loosing too much.

A variant gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses a primary class and a secondary class, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few caveats apply, however.

Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.
Variant Gestalt characters don't have the spellcasting ability of their secondary class.
Prestige classes are not allowed for now (they may be turned into secondary classes later).

SECONDARY CLASS ABILITIES

CORE CLASSES

BARBARIAN (UNCHAINED)
1 RAGE
3 UNCANNY DODGE
5 RAGE POWER
7 IMPROVED UNCANNY DODGE, RAGE POWER

BARD
1 BARDIC KNOWLEDGE
3 BARDIC PERFORMANCE (LVL-2)
5 VERSATILE PERFORMANCE
7 LORE MASTER

CLERIC
1 DOMAIN (1st power)
3 CHANNEL ENERGY 1d6
5 CHANNEL ENERGY 2d6
7 DOMAIN (2nd power)

DRUID
1 ANIMAL COMPANION or DOMAIN (1st power)
3 WILD EMPATHY
5 WILD SHAPE (2/day)
7 DOMAIN (2nd power) or ANIMAL COMPANION ADVANCEMENT

FIGHTER
1 BRAVERY +1, BONUS COMBAT FEAT
3 ARMOR TRAINING
5 WEAPON TRAINING
7 ADVANCED ARMOR TRAINING or ADVANCED WEAPON TRAINING

MONK (UNCHAINED)
1 UNARMED STRIKE
3 FLURRY OF BLOWS
5 KI POOL/KI STRIKE (MAGIC)
7 KI POWER

PALADIN
1 SMITE EVIL (1/day)
3 LAY ON HANDS
5 SMITE EVIL (2/day)
7 DIVINE BOND

RANGER
1 TRACK
3 FAVORED ENEMY
5 FAVORED TERRAIN
7 HUNTER'S BOND

ROGUE (UNCHAINED)
1 TRAPFINDING, WEAPON FINESSE
3 SNEAK ATTACK +1d6
5 ROGUE TALENT
7 SNEAK ATTACK +2d6

SORCERER
1 BLOODLINE POWER
3 BLOODLINE POWER
5 CANTRIP
7 BLOODLINE BONUS FEAT

WIZARD
1 ARCANE SCHOOL
3 ARCANE BOND
5 CANTRIP
7 BONUS FEAT (METAMAGIC, ITEM CREATION or SPELL MASTERY) or ARCANE DISCOVERY

BASE CLASSES

ALCHEMIST
1 ALCHEMY
3 BOMB 1d6
5 MUTAGEN
7 DISCOVERY, BOMB 2d6

CAVALIER
1 TACTICIAN
3 CHALLENGE 1/day
5 ORDER ABILITY
7 CHALLENGE 2/day

GUNSLINGER
1 GUNSMITH
3 GRIT, DEEDS (level 1)
5 GUN TRAINING 1
7 DEEDS (level 3)

INQUISITOR
1 INQUISITION
3 JUDGMENT 1/day
5 DISCERN LIES
7 JUDGMENT 2/day

MAGUS
1 ARCANE POOL
3 MAGUS ARCANA
5 BONUS FEAT (COMBAT, ITEM CREATION or METAMAGIC)
7 MAGUS ARCANA

ORACLE
1 MYSTERY, ORACLE'S CURSE
3 REVELATION
5 ORISON
7 REVELATION

SUMMONER (UNCHAINED)
1 EIDOLON
3 BOND SENSES
5 SHIELD ALLY
7 MAKER'S CALL

VIGILANTE
1 DUAL IDENTITY
3 SOCIAL TALENT
5 VIGILANTE TALENT
7 SOCIAL TALENT or VIGILANTE TALENT

WITCH
1 HEX
3 HEX
5 HEX
7 HEX

ALTERNATE CLASSES

ANTIPALADIN
1 SMITE GOOD (1/day)
3 TOUCH OF CORRUPTION
5 SMITE GOOD (2/day)
7 FIENDISH BOON

NINJA
1 NINJA TRICK
3 KI POOL
5 NINJA TRICK
7 LIGHT STEPS

SAMURAI
1 RESOLVE
3 CHALLENGE 1/day
5 ORDER ABILITY
7 CHALLENGE 2/day

HYBRID CLASSES

ARCANIST
1 ARCANE RESERVOIR, CANTRIP
3 ARCANIST EXPLOIT
5 ARCANIST EXPLOIT
7 ARCANIST EXPLOIT

BLOODRAGER
1 BLOODLINE POWER (1st level)
3 BLOODRAGE
5 BLOOD CASTING, ESCHEW MATERIALS
7 BLOODLINE POWER (4th level)

BRAWLER
1 UNARMED STRIKE
3 MARTIAL FLEXIBILITY
5 KNOCKOUT
7 MARTIAL FLEXIBILITY (SWIFT ACTION)

HUNTER
1 ANIMAL COMPANION
3 ANIMAL FOCUS
5 HUNTER TACTICS, TEAMWORK FEAT
7 TEAMWORK FEAT

INVESTIGATOR
1 INSPIRATION
3 INVESTIGATOR TALENT
5 STUDIED COMBAT, STUDIED STRIKE 1d6
7 INVESTIGATOR TALENT

SHAMAN
1 SPIRIT, SPIRIT ANIMAL
3 HEX
5 HEX, WANDERING SPIRIT
7 HEX, WANDERING HEX

SKALD
1 RAGING SONG
3 BARDIC KNOWLEDGE
5 RAGE POWER
7 LORE MASTER

SLAYER
1 STUDIED TARGET
3 SLAYER TALENT
5 SLAYER TALENT
7 STALKER

SWASHBUCKLER
1 SWASHBUCKLER FINESSE
3 PANACHE, DEEDS (level 1)
5 CHARMED LIFE 3/day
7 DEEDS (level 3)

WARPRIEST
1 BLESSINGS
3 FERVOR 1d6
5 SACRED WEAPON +1
7 SACRED ARMOR +1, FERVOR 2d6

[mekka2000]

No interest ? :(

The goal is to have character more powerful and versatile, as in gestalt, but not too much, inspired by the variant multiclassing rules from pathfinder unchained.

There's too much broken combinations in gestalt for pathfinder, so this set of rules could tone down that (I had 2 players gestal level 1 that beat easily a dungeon of average difficulty made for four 4th level pcs).

I'v added a rule, the skill synergy.
Synergy Skills bonus
For each skill belonging to both the primary and the
secondary class skills lists, you gain a +1 synergy bonus
to this skill.

So by "gestalting", you have better HD, BAB, SAVES and a little boost on some skills, and some abilities of another class, but not so much. You can be a sorcerer that can track its preys and have an animal companion, but he'll never be a true ranger, for example.

[Kolokotroni]

If you cant trust your players to make non-broken characters, gestalt isn't your problem. Your choice 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th level abilities for the secondary class is sort of arbitrary. Classes are different in the importance of abilities gained at different levels.

Some classes get their key abilities like the barbarian, others don't like the magus.

Gestalt has a purpose, but if you are worried your players will subvert it by min maxing it to make broken characters, you are better off going a different direction. Heck its not all that difficult to make SINGLE CLASSED broken characters at this point. Plus not giving the spellcasting abilities of the second class drastically limits the usefulness of those classes. You have basically made it so the only time it makes sense to include a spellcaster in this system is as your primary class. If you just want to play single classed characters with more skills and better saves give the classes more skills and better saves. Trying to make munchkin proof gestalt rules is an exercise in insanity.

[mekka2000]

Do you know the variant multiclassing rules from Pathfinder Unchained ?
My variant Gestalt is to variant multiclassing what Gestalt is to classic multiclassing...
So your point is valid but applies also to variant multiclassing

[Kolokotroni]

mekka2000 wrote:

Do you know the variant multiclassing rules from Pathfinder Unchained ?

My variant Gestalt is to variant multiclassing what Gestalt is to classic multiclassing...
So your point is valid but applies also to variant multiclassing

I am aware of them, I don't think they are particularly good. And I am not sure where you are going with that analogy but I don't think it actually tracks. I understand you used those rules as a guide for yours. Its sort of irrelevant to my point.

The problem of not providing key class features is a problem but its not my most important point. My primary point is that if you are worried about people making broken characters, gestalt is the wrong road to go down. Its like trying to make a fireworks factory safe for hyperactive children to have an unsupervised sleep over in. Technically its possible, but why on earth are you going to the trouble?

[mekka2000]

In fact I want to be able to have characters not "half barbarian half druid" but "a barbarian with a little flavour of a druid, a little bit more powerful than a barbarian", or "a fighter with a sorcerer bloodline" but not "half fighter, half sorcerer"...
They get the "main" abilities of a class (bloodline for a sorcerer, sneak attack for a rogue), but this class stays "secondary".

"Builds less broken" is more a side effect.
I want characters viable in a 2 player game, able to handle a module made for 4 PCs.
For example a Fighter/Rogue is more powerful and versatile than a fighter, because he can handle traps and has a little sneak attack, and has more skill ranks. He has the flavour of the rogue, better numbers (saves, skills and so on..) but it's still "mainly" a fighter..