Classless d20 concepts, ideas, and discussion.


Homebrew and House Rules


Now to start, it'll be a while before I can do serious work on this this as I'm in the midst of a heavy workload, however I am still looking for feedback, suggestions, and possibly help in the meantime.

The idea here is to modify the core d20 rule set to get rid of classes primarily, but also to change magic to make it less reliable, but also less restrictive, and for it to not be balanced by limited use per day, but rather balance it via other methods.

I figure I should start with determining what major factors will change and what shall stay the same.

The goals I truly want at the core,
-be classless, ptu style "classes" are somewhat acceptable
-more explicit and unified power tiers (and ability to remain within a tier)
-magic more skillful, fluid, and flexible
-remain close enough the spells, feats, equipment, other d20 material is easily usable

A few minor things I'd like to see, but not as important,
-growth more about versatility than number enlarging
-useable for my magetech setting
--tech rules
--ships, for sea, air, and space
--mass combat
-different health system (fort save, or modified wounds/vigor, or something else)
-DCs fixed in line with everything else
-better use of various materials and not just the special ones
-more interesting crafting
-better match together various subsystems

So thoughts on these or suggestions for other goals?


Googles ptu classes Propylthiouracil, Drug Facts... no. Pokemon Tabletop United ?
So basically something like feat trees ?

(Please excuse the bad attempt at humour, I believe a few readers may need it given that the last classless thread was less than 2 weeks ago.)

I believe that you'll have a hard time because some of your primary goals are in conflict. You aim to change the way magic and power tiers works, while trying to keep being compatible with PF spells/feats. Given that the spells are all over the place in term of power, it would be highly difficult to do.

As for the minor things, I'm half and half based on the vague points. I agree with the leveling goal (which is not a minor thing), but I'd like to point out that some power increase would be good.
I'm not a fan of special materials, so I'm not a fan of expanding on normal materials (I care little if your sword is iron or steel, as long as it's a sword).

Nothing much to say for now, since it's pretty vague.


I don't really want to change much about the tiers, but to simply be more explicit about them. Lvl 16-20 are basically demi-gods, far above and beyond mere heroes like Conan, Xena, or Aragorn, thus those levels should be described as such. And perhaps to avoid more discussions of people trying to tell me that I'm supposed to be a pathetic weakling until around lvl 10.

As for changing magic, there are two facets to my plan, first, casting spells will require checks to achieve success, and potentially affect the cl of the spell effect, the second aspect is removing spells per day. In the original system concept, the idea is that spells can't be spammed (at least not till late lvls) because you would have to go through several encounters with hardly enough spells to cast one for each encounter, meaning each spell cast had to be carefully chosen and deliberate. But of course the counter to that comes along, the 15 minute workday, ruining the primary aspect intended to balance the entire system. So for this reason, and that my setting is high magic with characters casting spells all day long, I want to allow basically unlimited casting of spells, relying on other aspects to balance it out. I haven't got a totally clear plan for this yet, but I'm thinking by making spells less reliable, and difficult enough that even at high character levels, the low level spells are the primary ones cast, and limiting caster level I hope to help keep damage and save DCs in line.

However, all that said, I want to use basically the same stats, such as spell level and caster level, and just use them in new ways so that spells from a pf/3.x splat don't need conversion to be used.


Oh yea, ptu is pokemon tabletop unlimited, and their classes are basically feat trees with a few special rules.

I totally love humour by the way. I just suck at it. :)


Okay, alternative idea for tiers.

Let tier be separate from levels.

For the natural tier, maximums don't grow as fast, nor do certain progressions, thus even level 20s are still within the realm of gritty fantasy, for example, each character gets only one hit dice, then gains 1 hp per level plus con modifier, min 0, thus never gaining superhuman hp. CL and Bab also stay low. In essence, leveling is more about growing in versatility than in raw power.

On the other side, the superhero tier can start with con score * 10 in bonus hp, CL starts at 10, etc. Thus even a level 1 superhero starts out as far more than a mundane could ever be.

I think having much slower progressions period, then different tiers will either get bonuses to start, or modify the progression (such as getting double hp, or bab +5) that way each tier stays in it's zone with both lvl 1 and lvl 20 feeling like a good fit for that tier, yet the lvl growth adds versatility and expansion to abilities over the course of 20 levels allowing characters to still feel like they are growing.

What do you guys think?

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