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So this one started in a rough place, but I tried massaging it a bit and I like where it ended up for the most part. I think it's fine early on, but I have concerns that the explosive action/fate dice scaling is not where I need it to be.
What I have done so far has shown a rogue-like class with more exceptional skill utility, and who consistently hits more often but for less damage than the Unchained Rogue. Crits also mean a lot for class abilities, but no much for damage.
I've been trying to abuse explosive dice, and the swingy-ness of the damage means average damage is rock bottom with a few strong lucky hits that might be as strong as a rogue or monk.
For example, using an Estoc at 18th level has a maximum damage output of 64 damage but there is a less than 1% chance to deal more than 15 damage from a single attack. With critical hits the math gets a bit wonkier because it does't scale linearly meaning the rerolled weapon attack damage is even less likely to land over 15.
Dumping 7 fate dice at that level deals on average 25 damage still, but has a less than 1% change to deal over 35 with a cap in the 300s that would be less likely than winning the lottery by a significant margin.
So I think that extreme rarity balances it out well, and the nature of fate die mean you spend them frequently on any roll in and out of combat since they refresh by rolling dice. Anyways, feedback is appreciated!
There's some REALLY broken stuff in there.
First, I would just have fate dice say: "you can add a fate die to any attack roll, skill or ability check, saving throw, damage roll, or caster level check. You can add the die after your roll, but before you know the results of the roll." That pretty much covers everything that you would want to add a die to.
For regaining fate dice, it should only be on certain rolls and there should be a way to stop someone from filling their pool back up by attacking a tree for a minute.
Paragon is insanely powerful. I would expect something like that to be the lvl 10 capstone of a prestige class.
Cheat fate: at level 20, guarantee a crit with a keen weapon. Even for level 20, that seems pretty powerful.
Savant is super broken. I would have the lvl 10 ability as written be the lvl 20 ability and drop 10 to 1/4 or 1/3 and remove the prestige class clause.
I agree with some things.
The fate dice wording needed clarification, and it probably is better specifying the rolls. Not specifically sharing that it had to be done before the result was know is my fault, that is obvious.
As far as filling the pool back up quickly, that was something I took note of because I was thinking per minute. I've left it once per round for now just because date dice are meant to be mostly available all day. I think a GM fiat clause similar to the daring action optional grit refreshing rule maybe can fit, because while I can trust my players (and myself) to not allow that there it needs to be cleaned up for a "professional" look.
Paragon is the old wording. It's supposed to give an enhancement bonus equal to the difference. That is the old wording that just replaced it. It's not intended to stack with magic
Items. it is potentially exploitable with Sorcerer and Savant... But that is already super exploitable with crossblooded cheese and is slow. Eldritch Heritage could be an issue because the Charisma score can boost itself to boost Strength to boost Charisma more... But Savant is also incredibly MAD and the generalist nature of skills makes me worry less. I try not to design around a single feat combination, though if a pattern is found I would curb things back.
Cheat fate at level 20 is a crit if it hits a few times per encounter/day. It is a limited pool, requires a d20 confirmation roll, and the class is on the low side for damage (except for the old paragon wording being there). I know it looks powerful, but guaranteed confirmations require a double investment in fate dice. I feel that makes it weaker than the gut reaction, but I wouldn't mind a little back and forth on it. If I changed it, it would be going 2d8+4 -> 2d6+8 -> 3d4+8 and make the bonus work with explosive dice better each time. Does that sound better?
Savant, like explosive dice, was something I thought was much more broken until I tested it a bit. At level 10, you essentially gain 1) 3rd level casting (5th level casting at 18), 2) increased martial ability, or 3) some esoteric abilities or support. It's not the best thing to measure against, but Savant is strictly weaker a class ability that animal companion or a familiar that allows you to gear the Ace to perform better for a specific section of a campaign - whether that means picking up some ranger abilities or picking up some spells. I have tried to break Savant, and I can't find a combination that is the breaking point. It helps that the Ace itself is a skill-based chassis and not terrific at other things. The prestige clause is there because I want people to use them without making strictly sub-par choices. I don't deny that there might be a broken combination out there, but I have been unable to do it. I am looking for anyone to prove me wrong and trim it back since it is the only surviving original class ability I wrote in the pre-alpha version of the Ace.
Thank you for responding, and I see some comments to review.
I agree with Scud. I'm not a fan of this at all.
What makes explosive action and fate dice ridiculous is that they work on ALL dice rolls, including non-d20 rolls. It purposely works on percentiles, damage rolls, and even variable rolls like determining how many images you get from the Mirror Image spell. This can result in breaking a lot of things. The fate dice economy is also whacky due to regeneration and that the capacity increases with level. I understand you're trying to go for a grit version of inspiration. But as I said earlier, having it work off of any dice roll makes it way too strong.
Then you got Paragon, which lets you completely cheat the ability score system, and Savant, that lets you gain the abilities of another class.
Most of all, the class comes off as incredibly broken and meta. You succeeded in making a class that feels like it's cheating the game, but I think it goes way too far. It breaks the game on fundamental levels. Even ignoring that, it's way too powerful and too good of a dip class.
I took a hard look at the explosive dice, and I agree that there are a few abilities out there than can be exploited by it - especially things like Summon Monster or Mirror Image that provide a small number of things using uncommon dice. I had already wrote the lines in to prevent d2 and d3 exploding so easily, but that was more for unarmed damage and not spells. I went ahead and just blanketly removed everything from a cast spell but spell damage from exploding action and clarified things like using composite dice for a % roll.
I made the changes I acknowledged from my post above about fate dice; the rolls are specified, and regaining dice is clarified to prevent so easily regaining dice - including fate dice regaining fate dice when used. I still struggle with calling it broken because how many dice have to be used to do much of anything on a single dice roll, it's not like a static bonus that is present for any roll it has to be invested to get any benefit. I agree that it is not meant to be recharged easily, but if you think it's broken please expand on why so I can understand and rework things and not just say it. I have run through basic scenarios at different levels with the class, but I'm only 1 guy doing this as a hobby.
Also, while it is formatted like grit, I didn't base it off grit. Grit is an extremely weak class ability with a few highlights across several classes and archetypes with a very narrow use - the primary function of fate dice is to spend it to do fuel class abilities and to provide bonuses to rolls. Most grit abilities rely on "having at least 1 grit" or at least work with it being a very small pool. I don't think calling grit a very weak and narrow ability is unfair with the existing complaints about the gunslinger and swashbuckler.
I changed paragon, and then tweaked the new wording to both be more clear and limit the result. The intent is to replace enhancement magical items and spells, so now it becomes a more general bonus to aid with the class being very skill dependent. This way that 8-10 on a skill becomes a 15 and one additional score gets a bigger boost. The only "loophole" is using Eldritch Heritage to get inherent bonuses to Strength and use Strength as a primary ability score, but it seems like a bad idea to throw an ability out for a single abuse - especially since this is not a product it is homebrew.
I adjusted cheat fate down to what I mentioned above. I think the averages work out better, and even with exploding you can only crit at the normal values. The exploding maximums are high but again, chances of lightning striking are not a reason to throw it out. Rolling average is boosted a little, and rolling extreme values at high level just don't matter.
As far as savant goes, it provides the utility of a cohort (even less so) or UMD familiar without the action economy benefits. Again, I ask to provide more reasons than a reaction. An ace's class abilities are almost entirely skill based, so getting a few abilities to improve combat or cast some spells is not broken in the last half of class levels. The capstone might be, but at 20th level I don't particularly care if it breaks the game because the game is already broke.
I tried to make as powerful a martial I could at 18th level with 9 class levels in martial classes and I got to an average of 94 damage before magical weapons on a crit with 7d6 fate dice with a less than 5% chance to go over 100 and a less than 0.5% chance to go over 110 damage. A typical hit would be in the 35 damage range with a roughly 2% chance to explode to damage above the maximum range - virtually no change to jump above 45 even being able to explode 7 times. I used a falchion and mutation warrior 9//ace 18. No magic items. Low end of damage. If he goes rogue the damage doesn't get better with 5d6 sneak attack, but there is a slim shot of doing bonus damage that's still less than typical for 18th level.
On the extreme flip side would be a full caster with 5th level casting. A wizard would have plenty high enough Intelligence to cast anything with a decent DC, but the slots are more limited than a 6th level caster. To really tip the scales it would require making a more exploitative build period - master summoner, false priest, etc. whose class abilities would greatly benefit the ace's.
I think it may need some more RP constraints based on retraining and not allowing cohorts, but I don't see a way to call it broken even trying to exploit the system.
Anyways, it's updated and I do appreciate the responses.
hiiamtom wrote: I took a hard look at the explosive dice, and I agree that there are a few abilities out there than can be exploited by it - especially things like Summon Monster or Mirror Image that provide a small number of things using uncommon dice. I had already wrote the lines in to prevent d2 and d3 exploding so easily, but that was more for unarmed damage and not spells. I went ahead and just blanketly removed everything from a cast spell but spell damage from exploding action and clarified things like using composite dice for a % roll. You're better off explicitly listing what dice rolls you can apply it to. Being able to double or triple your natural dice result still way too powerful of an ability. Especially an at-will 1st level ability.
hiiamtom wrote: I still struggle with calling it broken because how many dice have to be used to do much of anything on a single dice roll, it's not like a static bonus that is present for any roll it has to be invested to get any benefit. Fate Dice (and explosive dice and cheat fate) are broken because they screw with the game's math on a fundamental level. Part of the reason stems from the fact that the value of dice roll bonuses is not uniform across different types of rolls in the game. For example, +1d6 to an attack roll is not the same as a damage roll, an Acrobatics check, a Knowledge check, an ability check, a caster level check, a saving throw, a concentration check, a variable roll for a spell, miss chance roll, or any number of dice rolls in this game. The value differs wildly. In addition, many of these rolls have very different math involved, even rolls that use the same kind of dice. For many of those rolls, adding up to 4d6 or doubling the dice roll totally screws with the math. This is one of the big reasons these abilities are broken.
I recommend following the model of Inspiration or the Derring-do deed. Choose a very carefully chosen list. Either stick to specific skill checks or maybe attack rolls.
Instead of fate dice and explosive action, it would be kind of fun if the class had a grit-like economy to add 1d6 to a skill check or 1d6 precision damage to an attack. Applying it to a saving throw or attack roll might cost two points.
hiiamtom wrote: Also, while it is formatted like grit, I didn't base it off grit. Like grit, the fate dice economy is a dynamic resource engine. Nearly all class resource pools are static engines in this game.
hiiamtom wrote: Grit is an extremely weak class ability with a few highlights across several classes and archetypes with a very narrow use - the primary function of fate dice is to spend it to do fuel class abilities and to provide bonuses to rolls. Most grit abilities rely on "having at least 1 grit" or at least work with it being a very small pool. You're criticizing the power level of deeds, not the grit mechanic itself. The power level of deeds have to be kept conservative because they aren't gated by daily uses. They have to be balanced with the mindset that the character can potentially use the ability almost at-will. The capacities don't scale with level because the regeneration increases as the character gets more powerful.
hiiamtom wrote: I don't think calling grit a very weak and narrow ability is unfair with the existing complaints about the gunslinger and swashbuckler. On the contrary, grit and panache seem really popular despite criticism existing over the power level of some deeds. The biggest criticism of grit I've seen came from Sean K Reynolds, who pointed out that grit encourages you to kill weak opponents. The majority of complaints against the gunslinger and swashbuckler have nothing to do with their resource system.
hiiamtom wrote: I changed paragon, and then tweaked the new wording to both be more clear and limit the result. The intent is to replace enhancement magical items and spells, so now it becomes a more general bonus to aid with the class being very skill dependent. This way that 8-10 on a skill becomes a 15 and one additional score gets a bigger boost. The only "loophole" is using Eldritch Heritage to get inherent bonuses to Strength and use Strength as a primary ability score, but it seems like a bad idea to throw an ability out for a single abuse - especially since this is not a product it is homebrew. The new Paragon is also broken. You intentionally designed this ability to reward the player the more they min-max their character's ability scores, which isn't a good thing. It totally throws off the trade-offs a player makes in order to gain higher ability scores. This ability also gives an ability score enhancement bonus greater than any character is capable of achieving in the entire game. Also, have you ever considered that this ability actually gives you free ability score bonuses for buying magic items? For example, you basically get a free Headband of Vast Intelligence +2 for buying a Belt of Giant Strength +4. Finally, the ability ignores the fact that the value of ability scores increases quadratically, not linearly. I'm not even getting into what Paragon does at later levels! In multiple ways, the math of Paragon is really messed up.
The design goal of this ability also raises concern. Giving constant free magic item stats is almost always something you want to avoid. The game assumes a character invests a percentage of their wealth on magic items to raise their statistics. With this ability, it's very easy to create a character that gets a +7 enhancement bonus, which equates to a 49,000 gp magic item, at 3rd level.
In addition, the ability is also very boring. It gives an insane amount of power to the character without making them more interesting or exciting to play. That's never a good thing.
I have some ideas, let me try again. I still don't 100% agree with you on the math part, but I can make the ability more focused and scalable. I will say it will never, ever be what you suggest entirely because you are telling me fate should be weaker than sneak attack and a host of other 1st level abilities.
I'm not going to argue further about grit.
You convinced me about paragon by mentioning it was boring, because you are right. Long term the enhancement bonus washes out when abilities fail to stack and it is front loaded (though the maximum possible bonus at level 3 is +6 by taking a 7 and a 20 as starting stats).
I started typing out these suggestions as I read through the talents. I haven't had the time to go through all of them yet (I only really check these boards while at work), but here are my notes so far:
Trapfinding: I would make the counterspell ability be it's own talent that requires Spelltheft, have it use Spellcraft, require a prepared action, and up the DC to 20+CL. The reason for the bumped DC is casters only get 1d20+CL vs 11+CL.
Triple jointed: Freedom of movement is a really powerful ability. I would make this minimum level 8 or 10.
Battlefield Medic: I would not have treat deadly wounds take any less time than 1 minute. A swift action for a normally 1 hour action is insane, no matter the effect.
Ace Knowledge: I would make the Lore Master ability a second tier talent requiring Ace Knowledge first. The third ability basically allows the Ace to pay 1/5th the cost for scrolls, so I would try to find a way to scale that back.
Cool, I actually just came in here to say I heavily edited explosive action, removed paragon for a new ability (rapid strike), and edited fate dice so it cannot be added to damage rolls. Explosive dice is exclusively for damage rolls and fate dice, and is cut back to 1 die.
Rapid strike gives vital strike with looser restrictions (to allow it as part of a charge or spring attack), but only for light melee or ranged weapons to balance the damage with other martial classes. The one handed restriction is removed at 11th when the ace gains the next step of vital strike, and he gets greater vital strike at 19th. Not only does vital strike work well with explosive action, but this allows for a pseudo pounce attack that deals damage in line with other classes. I couldn't do much work on this at the moment, but I have not found an exploit.
I should also mention while not completely broken, the math isn't perfect either. I need to do more tweaks.
I'm touching the advantages now, and universally stepped them down a bit from the first draft. For ones specifically called out: Scud422 wrote: Trapfinding: I would make the counterspell ability be it's own talent that requires Spelltheft, have it use Spellcraft, require a prepared action, and up the DC to 20+CL. The reason for the bumped DC is casters only get 1d20+CL vs 11+CL. I bumped the DC, and I agree with you I felt it was 1d20 + Spellcasting Modifier + Caster Level for dispelling magic so that was my fault. The bumped DC is more appropriate.
Instead of breaking the advantage system (which ties to skill unlocks and other things), I bumped the fate die cost significantly and changed the wording to my actual intent which is the Spelltheft is for AoE effects and this ability is for spells specifically targeting the Ace. As worded it worked at any range and any spell which it shouldn't.
Scud422 wrote: Triple jointed: Freedom of movement is a really powerful ability. I would make this minimum level 8 or 10. I just used the 1st level cleric ability that's been there since core :p
I agree it doesn't match what I'm going for: the ability fought directly against the skill unlocks for escape artist and the sense of just being really really good at that skill. I changed it to remove squeezing penalties, and the freedom of movement effect to only work on grapples and moving through gaps.
Scud422 wrote: Battlefield Medic: I would not have treat deadly wounds take any less time than 1 minute. A swift action for a normally 1 hour action is insane, no matter the effect. The whole point is to make nonmagical combat healing. Treat Deadly wounds makes the most sense, but it scales too well for the ability. It does need to be specifically worded or it will end up being better than heal (like 120HP at level 10 scales too good).
I changed it to poorly channeling energy for the healing, so it's uncontrolled to whom it heals and the damage has a very low DC (10+Wisdom). This way the healing is more reasonable for the action.
Scud422 wrote: Ace Knowledge: I would make the Lore Master ability a second tier talent requiring Ace Knowledge first. The third ability basically allows the Ace to pay 1/5th the cost for scrolls, so I would try to find a way to scale that back. This one isn't satisfying either. It cheeses the skill unlocks a bit and the magical item cost is way off (unintentionally). I changed the wording to just be bardic knowledge and in late levels that ability to cast legend lore (its severely limited in casting).
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