I have been thinking about a rogue fix for a while now (like everyone else); something that makes the rogue more thematic and fun to play, something that gives it a specific niche. I liked some of the things done with the Unchained rogue, but my real problem is that Sneak Attack makes the rogue focus on hit point damage, when I think that he would mesh with the party in a more fun and unique way if he worked more like a combat debuffer than a damage dealer. I think the Debilitating Injury of the Unchained rogue was a step in the right direction, but they still have Sneak Attack damage.
I looked at the conditions, but they don't really seem to scale up to high levels real well. So I went to the next source of debuffs, magic. There are great spells of every level that debuff. Why not make Sneak Attack a kind of a spell-like ability that grants a spell-like debuff rather than bonus hit point damage? I went through the CRB spell list and chose what I thought were the most appropriate debuff spells for each level and replaced Sneak Attack bonus damage with that spell effect. Here's my list. The target would get a Fort save with DC = 10 + rogue level + rogue's Dex mod, just like a spell but using Dex. The spell-like debuff can only affect the target of the Sneak Attack, even if the spell normally could affect others or be done at range or whatever.
1 - daze, 3 - ray of enfeeblement, 5 - blindness/deafness, 7 - ray of exhaustion, 9 - confusion, 11 - symbol of pain, 13 - eyebite, 15 - symbol of weakness, 17 - power word stun, 19 - power word kill
Thoughts?
I definitely think defining the rogue's role (both in and out of combat) as a trickster, debuffer, etc. is the way to go. I never really liked the idea of the rogue being this generalized "skill monkey" class. That should be the role of some kind of PC version of the expert NPC class, in my book.
Yeah, sneak attack being hit point-focused is really weird. It should have been some kind of dirty trick-like debuff mechanic from the get-go. I definitely don't see a problem with basing some of the effects off of spells, especially not at higher levels. Why not just create a list of effects, and let the rogue pick one whenever they would gain a new sneak attack dice, and then they can apply any one of these effects when they would score a successful sneak attack? My point is that, while I think your list seems fine, it should be expanded and made selectable. So you could choose to get to make people sickened for rounds/level with your sneak attacks, or create the effects of ray of enfeeblement, etc., but it's options from a menu, not just set in stone at certain levels.
Anyway, I definitely think this initiative is worth pursuing. I like the idea a lot.
Cheers,
- Gears
Thanks, Gears. I'm glad someone else thinks the idea isn't awful. Haha! These boards can be quite unforgiving.
I did actually intend that the spell effects would be new choices gained at each odd level. Sorry if that wasn't clear. So, if a 7th level rogue wanted to use the daze effect he gained at 1st level, he could. But if you mean giving choices at each odd level, you're right. I only came up with one.
Yeah, I meant, basically make it so the rogue gets two sets of selectable abilities, rogue talents and sneak attacks.
By the way, in re-reading my original post, I realize I based the DC on rogue level. That would not be correct. I was trying to mimic spell save DC's in order to use a mechanic that's already balanced and in use. I suppose it would be the level of the spell-like effect instead. So, DC 10 + spell-like effect level + Dex mod.
If you do decide to do a menu selection style effect for debuffs, I recommend changing the save from 10 + spell level + Dex to 10 + 1/2 Rogue level + Dex. It'll help out with design space a bit since you'll be able to include debuffs that aren't necessarily direct ports of spells (plus a bunch of debuff spells don't normally have saves anyway, so perfect mimicry gets a little weird).
Any other foreseen problems that I'm missing? My next step would be play testing, of course, but I know most of you are better theory crafters than I am. I would like to be able to anticipate problems. Any feedback is appreciated.