I am making an Aerokineticist in the Skull and Shackles Campaign. I have a couple of questions that I'm sure will come up.
What penalties will the air blast receive while underwater? The -2 penalty and half damage, the concentration check for a spell, or both.
Same question for the electrical blast.
Thanks!
I think it would work like a similar spell.
|
I would NOT want to be in the party (and water) if an aerokinetic used an electric bolt while underwater. No, just no. For that case I would personally rule half damage to EVERYONE in the range of the blast, including the kineticist. No save allowed either since you're 100% surrounded by the conductive medium.
As for an air blast, I would say half range at best, and possibly half damage. Might apply the -2 as well due to difficulty moving quickly. And no way would I allow an aerokinetic to gather power while underwater. But no concentration check. Using the blasts themselves doesn't require one when hit by an AOO after all.
Now, a hydrokinetic firing a water blast I wouldn't apply these penalties to. Well, I'd apply the -2 to hit. A cold blast though, I'd probably quarter distance and damage. This would be to represent the energy being expended freezing the water.
Wouldn't really allow fire blasts underwater, and would really recommend the player turn off their elemental defense. Don't want to boil yourself alive.
Nor would I allow an earth blast underwater. Where are you drawing the material from?
Nor would I allow an earth blast underwater. Where are you drawing the material from?
That's not how kineticist works.
|
|
Description of earth blast:
Element earth; Type simple blast (Sp); Level —; Burn 0
Blast Type physical; Damage bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing
[b]You shape earth into clumps or shards and send them flying at a foe.[b]
A hydrokineticist could be said to be drawing ambient moisture from the air. An electrokinetic... no idea. But geokinetics are specifically shaping earth, leaving chunks missing from nearby after they launch the blast. Thus probably not usable on a ship, inside a wooden building on the 2nd floor, or underwater.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Description of earth blast:
A hydrokineticist could be said to be drawing ambient moisture from the air. An electrokinetic... no idea. But geokinetics are specifically shaping earth, leaving chunks missing from nearby after they launch the blast. Thus probably not usable on a ship, inside a wooden building on the 2nd floor, or underwater.Element earth; Type simple blast (Sp); Level —; Burn 0
Blast Type physical; Damage bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing
[b]You shape earth into clumps or shards and send them flying at a foe.[b]
Kineticist bring the material from the elemental planes via the ethereal plane. They don't need the material nearby, it's not avatar the last airbender.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Kineticist bring the material from the elemental planes via the ethereal plane. They don't need the material nearby, it's not avatar the last airbender.Description of earth blast:
A hydrokineticist could be said to be drawing ambient moisture from the air. An electrokinetic... no idea. But geokinetics are specifically shaping earth, leaving chunks missing from nearby after they launch the blast. Thus probably not usable on a ship, inside a wooden building on the 2nd floor, or underwater.Element earth; Type simple blast (Sp); Level —; Burn 0
Blast Type physical; Damage bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing
[b]You shape earth into clumps or shards and send them flying at a foe.[b]
This.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And even if it was, there are minerals in water. Why could a Hydro draw water from the air but a Geo couldn't draw minerals from water? DOesn't make sense.
Just like the electric blast ruling upthread. Magical electricity does not conduct through water.
And even if it was, there are minerals in water. Why could a Hydro draw water from the air but a Geo couldn't draw minerals from water? DOesn't make sense.
Just like the electric blast ruling upthread. Magical electricity does not conduct through water.
Maybe I am confusing old versions of D&D but don't all electric spells have a wider area of effect underwater?
Maybe I am confusing old versions of D&D but don't all electric spells have a wider area of effect underwater?
Nope.
The only alterations to magic (including SLA's like the kineticist's wild talents) are:
Fire: Nonmagical fire (including alchemist's fire) does not burn underwater. Spells or spell-like effects with the fire descriptor are ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a caster level check (DC 20 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the spell creates a bubble of steam instead of its usual fiery effect, but otherwise the spell works as described. A supernatural fire effect is ineffective underwater unless its description states otherwise. The surface of a body of water blocks line of effect for any fire spell. If the caster has made the caster level check to make the fire spell usable underwater, the surface still blocks the spell's line of effect.
Spellcasting Underwater: Casting spells while submerged can be difficult for those who cannot breathe underwater. A creature that cannot breathe water must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell underwater (this is in addition to the caster level check to successfully cast a fire spell underwater). Creatures that can breathe water are unaffected and can cast spells normally. Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.
|
|
Where's anyone getting that kineticists are bringing anything in from the elemental planes? Haven't seen any reference to this in the book, just in this thread.
And why would you think an electric bolt from spell or other source wouldn't be conducted by water? So physics takes a vacation simply because the bolt of electricity was formed via magic or psychic powers? If you have a rules source for such a claim, care to share what book and page number it's on?
Where's anyone getting that kineticists are bringing anything in from the elemental planes? Haven't seen any reference to this in the book, just in this thread.
Mark said it. Also, telekinetic blast is the only one listed where you need materials.
And why would you think an electric bolt from spell or other source wouldn't be conducted by water? So physics takes a vacation simply because the bolt of electricity was formed via magic or psychic powers? If you have a rules source for such a claim, care to share what book and page number it's on?
I already posted how magic interacts with water in the game, electric spells are not altered (unlike fire spells), thus electricity made by magic is not have any special rules with water unless the ability itself has some special rule.
|
|
And just where are you pulling this from? Can you list a book and page number you find that ruling? Or is it your personal ruling on the subject? Because if that's the case, how is that any different then me saying "You want to do an electric blast while underwater? Fine, but you do realize it's going to hurt. Right?"
The books make no mention of either from what I'm seeing. So citation and/or book and page number are what I'm asking for. Not just "I already said it", but actual citation that can be verified by others.
Not that I'm saying you're lying. But I am asking to see verification. If I'm wrong, I'll happily amend how I'd rule something. This hasn't come up for me as a GM yet. But I have seen instances in modules and scenarios where interaction between electricity and water would support my ruling.
|
|
Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.
That says nothing about electric spells not being conducted by water. Only magic type it specifically describes the effects of is fire spells. It then says "subject to GM discretion" in regards to other spells. My ruling would be half damage to those in an area. If it's a small enough submerged section, might hit everyone if it's a single target spell. If it's a spell with a range, half damage to everyone within that range. I'd have Shocking Grasp deal half damage to everything within 10 ft of the target. Maybe up to 20 feet for a higher level shocking grasp. A zero level electric spell though, probably only would deal half damage to those within 5 feet. So caster, target, and maybe anything else adjacent to the target.
You are within your rights to rule it in a different way.
Notice too you didn't mention which book, just the SRD page. One reason I asked for book and page number is... When I'm GMing for PFS I have no access to the internet. I DO have access though to my PDFs. If I can only find rules on the SRD, I don't reliably have access to the rules when GMing.
Core Rulebook, pages 432-433.
If you use that magic based electricity does indeed find water conductive, you vastly increase the power of the spells. Do all cold spells turn water to ice, or is that just the ability of certain spells, like cone of cold Cand I use create water to turn shocking grasp into a pretty big area of effect spell?
|
|
There's evidence in various modules and scenarios that magic electricity gets conducted too. Crypt of the Everflame has a prime example. What about electricity created via magic or psyonics makes you think it'd act differently then lightning or electricity generated by a fungus?
Magic fire can be effective underwater presumably because it's either A. hot enough or B. fueled by the force of will of the caster. Probably option B though due to the concentration check. Otherwise it works like you'd expect, getting doused normally but able to turn water into steam.
Use to know someone who had an electric eel. It died cause he stopped feeding it after getting shocked by the dang thing simply by touching the water in the tank when it was agitated too many times. Are you saying casting shocking grasp when fully submerged would get conducted less then the charge given off by an electric eel despite it being a stronger charge? If it's a damaging electric attack, I'd say be careful using it in water.
If you tried the whole shocking grasp and create water thing, and were standing in the water? I'd rule you get shocked too. Heck, I'd be having it deal less damage then a precedent set by a module would suggest I should.
And you're darn tooting I'd let cold spells freeze water. Cone of Cold will do so as a matter of course if water is in the area of effect. Otherwise I'd rule you have to actually target the water. And I'd rule that ice spells cast underwater... not so effective at any range. Why? It'd spend all it's energy freezing the water near you. Me and a friend have been planning the whole 2 hydrokinetics creating an ice slick via the Slick utility talent and cold blast. Not all cold spells though. Spells that fire a bolt of ice wouldn't freeze water. Cool off smaller bodies given enough time, maybe. But not freeze. A kineticist's Ice Blast composite blast probably wouldn't freeze water either.
Or in other words "Chunk of ice", no. rays, cones, orbs, or otherwise of intense damaging cold, yes. How much water gets frozen, that would prob depend on the level of the spell. Just as I'd have electric spells or abilities affect things in a radius based on level of the spell/ability.
But again, if you don't want to rule like that then that's your right. It says in the rule it's DM's discretion how casting a spell underwater affects the spell. But electric spells should be affected by it somehow. So should spells like ray of frost, polar ray, freezing sphere, kinetic simple cold blast and the like.
There's evidence in various modules and scenarios that magic electricity gets conducted too. Crypt of the Everflame has a prime example. What about electricity created via magic or psyonics makes you think it'd act differently then lightning or electricity generated by a fungus?
Magic fire can be effective underwater presumably because it's either A. hot enough or B. fueled by the force of will of the caster. Probably option B though due to the concentration check. Otherwise it works like you'd expect, getting doused normally but able to turn water into steam.
Use to know someone who had an electric eel. It died cause he stopped feeding it after getting shocked by the dang thing simply by touching the water in the tank when it was agitated too many times. Are you saying casting shocking grasp when fully submerged would get conducted less then the charge given off by an electric eel despite it being a stronger charge? If it's a damaging electric attack, I'd say be careful using it in water.
If you tried the whole shocking grasp and create water thing, and were standing in the water? I'd rule you get shocked too. Heck, I'd be having it deal less damage then a precedent set by a module would suggest I should.
And you're darn tooting I'd let cold spells freeze water. Cone of Cold will do so as a matter of course if water is in the area of effect. Otherwise I'd rule you have to actually target the water. And I'd rule that ice spells cast underwater... not so effective at any range. Why? It'd spend all it's energy freezing the water near you. Me and a friend have been planning the whole 2 hydrokinetics creating an ice slick via the Slick utility talent and cold blast. Not all cold spells though. Spells that fire a bolt of ice wouldn't freeze water. Cool off smaller bodies given enough time, maybe. But not freeze. A kineticist's Ice Blast composite blast probably wouldn't freeze water either.
Or in other words "Chunk of ice", no. rays, cones, orbs, or otherwise of intense damaging cold, yes. How much...
You are welcome to your opinion, but the only things that happen are what the non fluff rules say (and even then we often have fluff that doesn't jive with what the rules says). It is an exception based rules set, so unless exceptions state X, Y or Z happen, they don't. Specific abilities, encounters, or exceptions in an adventure don't count as part of the general rules as they aren't available to reference for free. They are part of that specific adventure as a way to increase challenge of encounters or as special optional rules to be included, as they aren't the norm.
If they were intended to be the "norm" they would be referenced as FAQ or errata.
Modules and adventure paths don't always follow the same rule set. Before the Monster Codex for example, there were numerous Undead Barbarians benefiting from the moral bonuses from rage, despite Undead being Immune to such bonuses.
Specific beats general, and for those specific adventure paths and modules the rules work like you say. Looking at the general rules of the CRB though, which all the other APs and mods use for water and electricity, magic based electricity isn't conductive.
Just realized I was pretty much typing out what Skylancer4 said. Oh well.
|
|
And when the Rules As Written specifically say it's up to the GM how spells work underwater? That's not a "this is the standard rule that's followed outside of specific exceptions" situation, it's a "your GM will decide how it works" situation. Which is the whole point of the thread's initial question. No two game masters are required to rule it the same way. My ruling doesn't have to be the same as yours.
Although if it crops up in PFS enough I'd imagine they will make an official ruling for that venue.
And when the Rules As Written specifically say it's up to the GM how spells work underwater? That's not a "this is the standard rule that's followed outside of specific exceptions" situation, it's a "your GM will decide how it works" situation. Which is the whole point of the thread's initial question. No two game masters are required to rule it the same way. My ruling doesn't have to be the same as yours.
Although if it crops up in PFS enough I'd imagine they will make an official ruling for that venue.
When you want to get actual rules, you ask questions in the Rules Forum (as the OP did}. If you want to get on a soap box about how you think it should work head to the Suggestions/Homebrew/Advice Forums.
When the GM makes decisions that reach beyond or alter the actual published rules, you get into the area of House Rules which is not what this forum is for. They may or may not be useful additions, but they don't belong here in this forum.
|
|
Daniel, an experienced PFS player asked this question during the playtest to avoid table variation. Smart player.
Why wasn't that dev post cited earlier when I asked for verification? You know, instead of just "it's been told to us".
Where's anyone getting that kineticists are bringing anything in from the elemental planes? Haven't seen any reference to this in the book, just in this thread.
I'm just going to point out that if Kineticists needed nearby materials in order to attack with their elements, then Pyrokineticists would be worthless. Same with Hydrokineticists.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Daniel, an experienced PFS player asked this question during the playtest to avoid table variation. Smart player.Why wasn't that dev post cited earlier when I asked for verification? You know, instead of just "it's been told to us".
If I know the answer, I'm not of the opinion I should do the leg work for someone who hasn't got the time or can't be bothered to actually research themselves unless they continue to be adamant about it for several days. At which point it becomes apparent they truly don't get it and won't do it themselves and it becomes more time efficient to just prove them wrong than argue.
At 1st level, a kineticist chooses one primary element on which to focus. This element determines how she accesses the raw power of the Ethereal Plane, and grants her access to specific wild talents (see below) and additional class skills.
Luckily we've got that.
Daniel, an experienced PFS player asked this question during the playtest to avoid table variation. Smart player.Why wasn't that dev post cited earlier when I asked for verification? You know, instead of just "it's been told to us".
Because not every poster knows all the Dev posts from a play test from a few months ago.
From the newly released Aquatic Adventures:
:D