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I created this class for an upcoming Curse of the Crimson Throne. The class is inspired by the urban witchcraft of Dishonored's main characters, Corvo Attano and Doud, and China Mieville's Bas-Lag series, which I found difficult to create in Pathfinder. Witch/rogue/arcane trickster was just too weak to build and I didn't think it really got the feel of Corvo just right, so I built this instead. It's mostly just for personal use, since I found the style of Dishonored to be really cool, but I hope some other people out there might like the class.
Any critiques/suggestions are welcome, of course. In particular, if anyone has any suggestions for a better name, I'd be glad to have them. Athame is the only thing I could come up with that fits the typical Pathfinder pattern. Personally, I'm calling it a witch assassin.
Anyways, check out the witch/slayer here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12sB6waaS1TZcT2dVZuTXzHpmBV7eZL_75PyM38x R4tc/edit?usp=sharing
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I'm glad you feel the same, haha.
Also, I forgot to give credit where credit is due. I'd like to thank Ellington and Stark_, who created the Conmage and Guilemage, respectively. Both gave me a lot of direction and ideas for this class, and the Augmented Eyes, Arcane Eyes, and Clairvoyant Eyes talents came from Stark_'s Guilemage.
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I like that you tried to make the class description look polished. Though, there's a few typos. For example, it mentions cleric in the spells and anathemize mentions "studied target."
The class cherrypicks abilities from like 5 different classes. It literally lets you choose hexes, rogue talents, ninja tricks, magus arcana, and slayer talents. It also lets you get a pseudo-weapon training and rogue's finesse training, which I think is completley unfair. The rogue has that ability because they're a 3/4 BAB combat class with no spells.
Anathemize and spell filching are the only unique mechanics the class has. A 1st level ability to render an enemy flat-footed with no save is absolutely broken, especially on a class with spellcasting and sneak attack. The teleportation ability feels like an afterthought, despite you wanting to make a teleportation-based assassin.
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Thanks for noticing the typos.
I didn't put any work into creating new abilities - I wasn't looking to do that much work here, which is why you see so many classes present here. Spell filching is taken from the sandman bard, and anathemize is a modified version of the slayer's studied target ability. I had to go through a few versions of anathemize before I settled on the version you see. The slayer gets an automatic bonus to attack and damage, skills, and DCs against the target of of studied target, and later it can be applied to multiple opponents at once. Anathemize effectively does the same thing, although against opponents with high dexterity it will be more powerful while opponents with low dexterity won't suffer much from it.
That is very impressive work!
I've made a few archetypes in my day, but classes are tricky and you're managing nicely. :)
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Flat-footed is a really powerful debuff, especially one that can be done at-will at 1st level. With no save. One that lets the class sneak attack whenever they want when they already have spells to set up sneak attacks.
As Cyrad said, this is incredibly powerful. As is right now it's more of a gestalt than a hybrid. It has a strictly (and by a large margin) improved version of the hunter talents, the full version of the sneak attack, and an incredibly more powerful studied target. It also has noteworthy abilities from other classes at full strength, ie a rogue's uncanny dodge. It tries to do far too much, being both a very capable debuffer, very capable damage dealer, very capable sneak, and capable support caster.
A few things in particular stand out:
The Athame talents allowing unlimited access to rogue talents, slayer talents and magus arcana: Just... don't. Once each is more than enough. Also, given it's 2/3 casting, I'd say give it a talent every three levels instead of every other level. Also, don't give out the advanced versions of other classes' benefits. A single major hex might be an exception as that is so key to the concept.
The hexes could be kept unlimited, but not also given for free at 1st level.
Anathemize is far too powerful. First off, it shouldn't make them flat-footed, as that is a fairly unique condition that normally is not under a players control. Denied dex bonus to AC is by far enough. Secondly, allowing that and those DC bonuses for an extended period is just far too strong. If I were to write that ability, I'd make it more like:
Anathemize (Su): An athame can call on the mysterious powers that guide him to turn combat in his favor. As a move action, the athame can anathemize an opponent within 30 ft. that they have line of sight to. An anathemized opponent may not add their dexterity bonus to AC against attacks made by the athame, and take a -1 penalty on Saving Throws against Athame abilities and spells. This condition ends as soon as the opponent is hit by an attack by the Athame or fails a save against an Athame ability or spell, or when the athame uses anathemize on another creature.
If an athame deals sneak attack damage to a creature, they can anathemize that creature as a swift action.
At 8th and 16th level, the penalty on saving throws increases by 1.
This still allows the athame to use the ability on several attacks the same round, provided they're sneak attacks. It standardizes the penalty so it's not flat-footed, and it makes both effects penalties on the targets instead of having one be a target penalty and one be a user bonus. It also makes the saving throw penalty be at a pace so the 6th level casting of the athame keeps the (for practical purposes) DC progression of a full caster.
Hex Strike and Cursed Strike - Make them talents with a bonus to the save. Getting two actions in one is a big deal.
Greater Spell Filching - Again, make it an advanced talent, getting that kind of sponteinity is a big deal.
Master Athame - Activating Anathemize should be at least a swift. The other abilities seem okay, but the Greater Curse should not be changed from "flat-footed only".
1 - Anathemize, cantrips, eldritch bond
2 - Shadow step, athame talent
3 - Sneak Attack +1d6
4 - New spell level
5 - Spell filching, athame talent
6 - sneak attack +2d6
7 - New spell level
8 - Uncanny Dodge, athame talent
9 - Sneak attack +3d6
10 - New spell level
11 - Advanced athame talent, tricky spells
12 - sneak attack +4d6
13 - New spell level
14 - Improved uncanny dodge, athame talent
15 - Sneak attack +5d6
16 - New spell level
17 - Invisible thief, athame talent
18 - Sneak attack +6d6
19 - Major hex
20 - Master athame, athame talent
Now, this is supposing you want to keep it as a caster-heavy class. You could squeeze in notably more special abilities if you dropped it to a 4/9 casting class, or even dropped real casting in favor of a bunch of well-fitting SLA's.
Anathemize is just too good, especially for a 1st level abilty. It can be used as a move action, it has no save, no attack roll, no maximum duration, and has no limit on the number of uses. It is superior in every way to a 1st level spell that might do the same thing.
In order to salvage this ability and keep your thematic elements, make it a 3rd level ability that triggers on a sneak attack. Allow a saving throw and implement a duration. Alternately, allow some kind of action to shake off the effect instead of the duration, wherein the creature gives up attacking for the round in order to end the effect. This would make it similar to being on fire.
Granting a hex/talent/power at 1st level in addition to every even-numbered level doesn't feel right to me. Perhaps in place of the 1st level hex, he gains a pool of points associated with Anathemize.
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I dunno, I don't think flat footed is all that great of a condition. Granted, in Pathfinder, it's pretty rare to be able to make people flat footed with an ability, but it's really not much different from the slayer's studied target ability. I'll play it as is, but if it's too powerful I'd reduce anathemize to times per day or round equal to half class level. If you notice, the Advanced Class Guide introduces several abilities that work without duration or limits per day.
If you want to look for equivalent abilities, the class is really modeled after the magus. Spell filching replaces spell recall, & hex strike and cursed strike are based on spell strike.
It doesn't have full sneak attack or full access to any other class' talents.
The athame has access to just as many rogue talents as the investigator (40), plus a few others. I didn't feel like writing a bunch of unique talents, hence a bunch of talents from other classes. If you want to make some unique talents feel free, I would love to see them.
I have a hex at first level because the witch hexes are (for me) iconic to the class, but athame talents can't come in at first level because no other class gets rogue talents at level 1.
There are extremely few abilities that make opponents flat-footed, and nearly all are conditional and very low-duration. It is simply not meant as a condition you apply to opponents at your whim. There's Shatter Defenses, which is very conditional, a 3 feat chain, and only lasts a round. There is Catch Off-Guard, which is only against a single attack with an improvised weapon. There's Flowing Monk, which is conditional, allows a save and only a single round. There's Distracting attack, which is conditional, requires the rogue to skip all sneak attack damage, only applies to another character and only for a single round.
Applying such a condition is a very, VERY big deal as it interacts with how other abilities function, apart from being a powerful debuff in it's own right.
As is right now, I can't see any martial character NOT taking a level in Athame just for the benefit of anathemize. Couple that with two good saves and powerful support abilities and it's the most obvious dip class ever - only reason for a martial character not to dip, is taking many levels in it.
It's supposed to be a hybrid Slayer/Witch, according to the OP. Full sneak attack for a slayer is 1d6 / 3 levels; the Athame has full slayer sneak attack. Likewise, it has full rogue uncanny dodge. It also has 6+Int skills, full skills from a slayer, while being an int-based class.
If it is to be based on the Magus, don't make it a slayer/witch hybrid with a slap of good rogue abilities, make it a magus archetype. Just make a stealthy magus archetype that is compatible with Hexcrafter and replaces the spell list. Making it an archetype makes it far easier to consider it's power, as you can clearly see the tradeoffs. Here:
Athame: Athame are shady people, dealing in unsanctioned arcana and keeping to the shadows.
Spells: An Athame uses the witch's spell list instead of the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This feature may be combined with abilities from other archetypes that add spells to the spell list.
Anathemize (Su): An athame can call on the mysterious powers that guide him to turn combat in his favor. As a move action, the athame can anathemize an opponent within 30 ft. that they have line of sight to. An anathemized opponent may not add their dexterity bonus to AC against attacks made by the athame, and take a -1 penalty on Saving Throws against Athame abilities and spells. This condition ends as soon as the opponent is hit by an attack by the Athame or fails a save against an Athame ability or spell, or when the athame uses anathemize on another creature.
If an athame deals sneak attack damage to a creature, they can anathemize that creature as a swift action.
At 8th and 16th level, the penalty on saving throws increases by 1.
This replaces Spell Combat and Improved Spell Combat.
Shadow Step (Sp): At 2nd level, an athame can teleport up to 10 feet per athame level per day as a move action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The athame must have line of sight to his destination to use this ability, and the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some dim light. He cannot bring other creatures with him.
This replaces Spellstrike.
Sneak Attack (Ex): At 5th level, the athame gains sneak attack. This functions as the rogue ability of the same name. At 5th level, the sneak attack damage is +1d6. At 11th and 17th level this increases to a maximum of +3d6. This replaces the three Bonus Feat class features.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 7th level, an athame can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does he loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. He still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. An athame with this ability can still lose his Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against him.
If an athame already possesses uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead. This replaces Medium Armor.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 13th level, an athame can no longer be flanked. This defense denies rogues (or other classes with the sneak attack ability) the ability to sneak attack the athame by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels (or levels in the class granting sneak attack) than the target has athame levels.
If a character already has uncanny dodge from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack when determining the minimum rogue level required to flank the character. This replaces heavy armor.
Invisible Thief (Su): At 19th level, an athame can become invisible, as if under the effects of greater invisibility, as a free action. He can remain invisible for a number of rounds per day equal to 1/2 his athame level. His caster level for this effect is equal to his caster level. These rounds need not be consecutive. This replaces Greater Spell Access.
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it's really not much different from the slayer's studied target ability
Giving someone a debuff that negates their defenses, triggers sneak attacks, and renders them unable to make attacks of opportunity against you is completely different than gaining a small bonus to attack and damage. Even if you sit down and look at the numerical benefits, anathemize is still way, WAY stronger.
And unlike the slayer, athame gets spells and hexes.
If you want to look for equivalent abilities, the class is really modeled after the magus. Spell filching replaces spell recall, & hex strike and cursed strike are based on spell strike.
The class is nothing like the magus. It doesn't follow the structure of the magus. It wasn't benchmarked compared to the magus. All you did was poach a few magus abilities. Classes are more than just a bag of powers. Context and structure are important to class design.
It doesn't have full sneak attack or full access to any other class' talents.
It gets access to all witch hexes, which are incredibly powerful. The witch makes many sacrifices to obtain that power compared to other 9-level spellcasters. Even the hexcrafter magus loses one of their most powerful class features to gain access to witch hexes, and they still have to use magus arcana to get hexes. It's also part of why I'm flabbergasted that the athame needs an ability as broken as anathemize when they can get the Slumber hex.
If you want to make some unique talents feel free, I would love to see them.
I have to admit that kind of rubs me the wrong way to say that.
I have a hex at first level because the witch hexes are (for me) iconic to the class, but athame talents can't come in at first level because no other class gets rogue talents at level 1.
Hexes are more powerful than rogue talents. If you want to give them hex-like abilities, then make up your own. A good rework of anathemize would be an altered Evil Eye hex that lets you do it as a move action, but you can only affect one target at a time.
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There are extremely few abilities that make opponents flat-footed, and nearly all are conditional and very low-duration. It is simply not meant as a condition you apply to opponents at your whim. There's Shatter Defenses, which is very conditional, a 3 feat chain, and only lasts a round. There is Catch Off-Guard, which is only against a single attack with an improvised weapon. There's Flowing Monk, which is conditional, allows a save and only a single round. There's Distracting attack, which is conditional, requires the rogue to skip all sneak attack damage, only applies to another character and only for a single round.
Applying such a condition is a very, VERY big deal as it interacts with how other abilities function, apart from being a powerful debuff in it's own right.
Right, so I think I'll end up limiting it to half rounds per level per use, and maybe bump the usage up to a standard action like the investigator's studied strike. Alternatively, you could just change it back to be just like studied target, but I did really want to give it something unique for its primary ability.
As is right now, I can't see any martial character NOT taking a level in Athame just for the benefit of anathemize. Couple that with two good saves and powerful support abilities and it's the most obvious dip class ever - only reason for a martial character not to dip, is taking many levels in it.
I hadn't thought about the multiclassing implications until our groups powergamer pointed it out. Since this class is just for personal use in a home game, I'm not worried about the multiclassing implications, but they'd be something to be wary of if anyone else ever wanted to use the athame.
If it is to be based on the Magus...
I think benchmarked on the magus would have been a more accurate thing for me to say. I used the magus to determine when the class gets what. Both are 3/4 bab, 6 level casting, 2 good saves, Int based.
At level one they both get their primary combat ability. Looking back at it again, they probably just shouldn't get a hex at level one. It should kick in at level 2 when they get their first talent.
Level 2 originally had hex strike coming in, just like the magus gets spell strike, but I had to move hex strike to level three when I changed the talents to every even level, not odd. Shadow step is extra.
Spell filching replaces spell recall, cursed strike replaces improved spell combat, tricky spells replaces improved spell recall, & invisible thief replaces counterstrike.
Sneak attack & talents at even levels replace fighter training, bonus feats, and medium and heavy armor. I think all that's ok.
It gets access to all witch hexes, which are incredibly powerful. The witch makes many sacrifices to obtain that power compared to other 9-level spellcasters. Even the hexcrafter magus loses one of their most powerful class features to gain access to witch hexes, and they still have to use magus arcana to get hexes. It's also part of why I'm flabbergasted that the athame needs an ability as broken as anathemize when they can get the Slumber hex.xn0o0cl3 wrote:
It doesn't have full sneak attack or full access to any other class' talents.
I gave it full hex access because they're an iconic part of the class for me. I don't think it's that broken since the witch receives them at level one, meaning anyone can dip witch and take Extra Hex to get as many hexes as they want (barring level restrictions, of course). I could separate hex and talent progression but that just seems awkward... Maybe they receive witch hexes at a reduced with level? Like with level -2 or -3 or something? I probably won't restrict it in that way when I play it.
I have to admit that kind of rubs me the wrong way to say that.xn0o0cl3 wrote:
If you want to make some unique talents feel free, I would love to see them.
I'm not being antagonistic. I mean I didn't add a lot of original content to this class because it's for personal use, and I didn't want/need a lot of original content. If anyone else wants to add to it, well that would be awesome.
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I gave it full hex access because they're an iconic part of the class for me. I don't think it's that broken since the witch receives them at level one, meaning anyone can dip witch and take Extra Hex to get as many hexes as they want (barring level restrictions, of course). I could separate hex and talent progression but that just seems awkward... Maybe they receive witch hexes at a reduced with level? Like with level -2 or -3 or something? I probably won't restrict it in that way when I play it.
That's not a good argument as the witch is deliberately a terrible dip class since all of their abilities (witch hexes and DCs included) rely on witch level. That's obviously not a problem for the athame. And many of my previous point still stand.
I still recommend you creating a curated list of hexes, even if they're just a small selection of witch hexes.
I think benchmarked on the magus would have been a more accurate thing for me to say. I used the magus to determine when the class gets what. Both are 3/4 bab, 6 level casting, 2 good saves, Int based..
No, it's not benchmarked with the magus. At least not properly. The magus has 2+Int skill points per level. The athame has 6+Int skill points per level. That alone means you're dealing with very different classes. The class features aren't comparable either. The magus's main class features involve spellcasting action economy and abilities that help the magus be a hybrid melee fighter and blasting mage. The athame has class features involving hexes and crippling an enemy's defenses so they can sneak attack them.
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No, it's not benchmarked with the magus. At least not properly.
Well I'm not sure what term I should be using here then, haha. I looked at the magus' primary and secondary ability progression, then made something similar for the athame. I think the classes are kind of similar too. The magus is meant to be a melee caster, while the athame is meant to be a sneaky caster. A lot of their abilities are designed to be similar too, e.g., spell filching does the same job as spell recall, hex strike and cursed strike do the same job as spellstrike, etc etc.
Here are two alternate versions of anathemize:
Anathemize (Ex): An athame can call on the mysterious powers that guide him to turn combat in his favor. At 1st level, an athame can anathemize an opponent he can see as a move action. The athame then gains a +1 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, and Sense Motive checks attempted against that opponent, and a +1 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against it. The DCs of athame class abilities and spells against that opponent increase by 1. An athame can only maintain these bonuses against one opponent at a time; these bonuses remain in effect until either the opponent is dead or the athame anathemizes a new target.
If an athame deals sneak attack damage to a target, he can anathemize that target as an immediate action, allowing him to apply his anathemize bonuses against that target (including to the normal weapon damage roll).
At 6th, 12th, and 18th levels, the bonuses on attack and damage rolls, as well as the bonus to athame ability and spell DCs against an anathemized target increase by 1. The athame may discard this connection to an anathemized target as a free aciton, allowing him to study another target in its place.
At 7th level, an athame can anathemize an opponent as a move or swift action.
(With this version, the cursed combat talent would be deleted.)
- or -
Anathemize (Su): An athame can call on the mysterious powers that guide him to turn combat in his favor. At 1st level, an athame can use a move action to anathemize an opponent he can see. That opponent is then considered to be flat-footed against the athame's attacks, and the DCs of athame class abilities and spells against that opponent increase by 1. This effect last for a number of rounds equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) or until he uses his hex strike or cursed strike abilities against that opponent.
An athame can only maintain these bonuses against one opponent at a time, and once a creature has become the target of an athame's anathemize ability, he cannot become the target of the same athame's anathemize ability for 24 hours.
If an athame deals sneak attack damage to a target, he can anathemize that opponent as an immediate action.
At 6th, 12th, and 18th levels, the bonuses on athame DCs against an anathemized target increase by 1.
At 7th level, an athame can anathemize an opponent as a move or swift action.
I'll come up with a trimmed hex list too.
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And here's a trimmed down list of hexes:
Hex: An athame can select one of the following witch hexes in place of an athame talent: blight, cackle, charm, child-scent, cursed wounds, discord, disguise, evil eye, feral speech, flight, fortune, misfortune, nails, poison steep, prehensile hair, slumber, tongues, ward, and water lung. Any hex effects based on witch level use the witch assassin's class level -3. This talent can be selected multiple times; each time, it grants the witch assassin a new witch hex.
Major Hex: An athame can select one of the following major hexes in place of an advanced athame talent: agony, animal skin, beast eye, delicious fright, harrowing curse, hidden home, hoarfrost, infected, wounds, nightmares, pariah, retribution, speak in dreams, and witch's charge. Any hex effects based on witch level use the witch assassin's class level -3. This talent can be selected multiple times; each time, it grants the witch assassin a new witch hex. The athame must be at least 14th level to select this advanced athame talent.
If you really want to reign it in, you could allow the Hex talent only at 2nd, 6th, and 10th levels.
Both of those suggestions seem far more in line with defining combat mechanics for a class, and seem well-written and consise. Thumbs up! I think either is reasonable, but would recommend the first variant, as the class is a 6/9 caster.