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So...partially inspired by this thread, I've put up my own (much less extensive) Fighter Fix here.
Just thought I'd give people the chance to return the favor in terms of analysis and commentary.
But for real tho, can I get the title changed?
SUMMON MARK SEIFTER!!!!!
The game is predicated on 4 fights a day...Just curious. According to who?
It's part of the 'average game' rules that Paizo uses to calculate balance.
Like WBL.
==Aelryinth
Presently I'm playing in my second Paizo AP, and I'm pretty sure that 4-combat days represent a small minority. Do you agree?
Hm. Not my experience.
He's probably used to doing MORE encounters, not less, at least when talking dungeons.
Kingmaker was notorious for 1-2 encounters a day when clearing hexes, so you always got to Nova in those fights.
==Aelryinth
Good call Dead Man. Kingmaker was the first one, and Skull & Shackles is the current one. Years ago we played part of Savage Tides with Buhlman, and that was closer to 4 per day, but I still wouldn't say it was standard. Not exactly the same, I know. All the rest of my PF experience is homebrew. Four combats in a day seems like a damn grueling day. By three we're basically hanging on by the skin of our teeth.
Its been many a year since I've been on a proper, old school, multi-level dungeon crawl.
Ah, most old schoolers get kind of baffled at '4 combats' because they're used to dungeon delving and trying to clear the dungeon. go go murderhobos go! was a theme song.
Kingmaker with its 1-2 encounters per day would have seemed incredibly easy.
==Aelryinth
Eggsellent. He now has the option of taking Master Craftsman and making it worthwhile to do so. You may want to note he doesn't have to take the required Magic Item Creation Feats.
You may also want to push that benefit back to level 3 at the minimum, so a dipper can't grab it.
One minor quibble. A free exotic weapon prof is indeed a front load, because some of them are clearly better then others.
You may want to make a very short list, such as bastard sword, katana, dwarven waraxe, etc. Only possible if fighter is the first level the PC takes.
Another thing you might do is reword Exotic Weapon prof. If taken and applied to a martial weapon, it makes it an 19-20/x3 weapon.
That way, all your classic martial weapons are the equal of falcatas, and swords and axes are on equal ground for crit-fishing.
Adds downtime usefulness as an OPTION, and skill buffs to classic military skills.
Nice nice. Give him some sort of group benefit/bonus/usefulness, and you have a well rounded fighter.
If you want a movement option, I suggest adding to Armor Training: IF the Fighter takes the Fleet feat, the bonus to movement is multiplied by his Armor Training bonus (thus increasing to +10 at 7th...when his heavy armor no longer slows him, +15, and +20 at 15th, at level 20 he also gains the benefit of the Run feat. He winds up 5' faster then a fleet barbarian, but slower for most of his career).
This is akin to what you did with militant expertise and combat training...a certain feat(or feats) keys off the class ability in a unique way.
As a matter of fact, you might consider using this mechanic repeatedly on other class abilities. I.e. if the Fighter has Improved Sunder, his Spell Sunder is at +2 and uses an AoO, etc.
That would be very thematic and a very cool way to add utility.
Lastly, I note that you might want to consider adding to the list of the Fighter's combat feats. Fleet, the saving throw feats, etc...a small list of Training-style feats that are very thematic, then have them dovetail with class abilities.
For instance, Improved Sunder reduces the cost of Spell shatter to just an AoO.
Iron Will allows Recovery to totally neutralize the condition, and adds +1 Martial Flexibility. Great Fortitude does the same with Defiance.
If you have all 3 Save feats, Stalwart works with Reflex Saves.
How about increasing Reflex save by Armor Training at level 11 if they have Lightning Reflexes? And at level 15, increasing the enhancement bonus of a Strength item by +2? That way, armor training keeps the 'armor is good' vibe going further.
Another alternative, if the armor's ACP = 0, no dex limit, instead of doubling armor DR (which basically forces the wearing of adamantine armor to use). This makes adamantine armor, if qualified, the best choice, instead of the only choice.
The level 19 ability is now, um, Colossal. Whoa. Heh. That's a +8 or +16 bonus, right?
Since you added this, I would totally scale the ability at 15 and 11, so he counts as Huge and Gargantuan at earlier levels. it's still a, ahem, BIG buff.
Some other minor kicks, and a group buff/teamwork thing, and I think you're all set.
Are you using the stamina pool from Unchained?
==Aelryinth
I note the Stamina Pool for another couple of abilities you could consider (or make it a feat).
Vigorous Stamina: At the start of a fight, you gain temporary hit points equal to your current stamina pool. These do not stack with any other temporary hit points you may have.
Vital Stamina: At the end of a fight, you heal hp = to your remaining stamina. This can only be damage suffered in that combat.
Vim: When subjected to a healing spell or other healing effect, you regain all stamina, and you gain additional healing equal to your stamina pool. The caster level of the effect is the greater of the caster level of the spell or your Fighter level (which would prove very useful for wands). If it is from a potion, the base healing effect is doubled. (which now makes wand healing = potion healing for a cost basis for the fighter).
A high level benefit: At the beginning of every round of combat, you gain temporary hit points equal to your current stamina pool. These do not stack with themselves.
===================
==Aelryinth
Lots of good ideas there, I like the idea of Fleet and Run being available, and uninhibited by armor thanks to armor training.
Having size bonuses scale with the ability is probably the right decision.
Exotic weapon for free might be a bit much now, probably should take that off.
I do like tying feats into each ability, so the fighter is the ultimate in combat. Builds should be based on flavor, not on mechanical mandates.
Changes have been made to several abilities.
Bonus feats now include all Combat feats, teamwork feats, and a list of more general feats from the CRB that might be considered useful.
Combat School now has a group buff feature where allies within 30 ft of the fighter can gain his weapon training benefits and a feat from his combat school for one minute. As he progresses in levels he can give out more feats, meaning anyone in the fighter's party can temporarily be just as awesome in combat as him.
Armor training now works with Fleet and Run.
Maneuver Training slowly allows you to treat your size as larger and larger, until the capstone let's you treat yourself as colossal, regardless of starting size.
Free exotic proficiency is gone, maybe for an archetype, like a new version of the weapon master.
1) his allies can now get more feats out of Martial Flexibility then he can, at later levels?
I'd max it out at 2 (at 10th level) and keep it simple.
I'd make the 'weapon training' a morale bonus so stacking too much isn't an issue.
Martial Flexibility is fueling a lot of things, and he doesn't have that many uses of it...
Since the 'buffing' is very much akin to what a cavaliar does, you might just want to limit it to x times/y levels.
2) Maneuver training: Does this mean that he treats his size as bigger (which would radically increase his modifier for many checks) OR does it mean he IGNORES size modifiers up to X? Being able to wrestle a Colossal creature on even terms is different then getting a +16 to a bunch of Combat Maneuvers!
3) Since the samurai gives away katana, how about an alternate rule: If a human Fighter takes Weapon Focus in the bastard sword or katana at character level 1, he is treated as if he has the EWP for that weapon.
-Which is basically weapon familiarity for 3 weapons, which is less then elves, dwarves, gnomes, orcs and halflings get racially.
4) I'd add the three saving throw booster feats to that list.
==Aelryinth
Language has been added so the maneuver size bonus only applies against enemies that are actually that size or larger.
Combat School now only gives up to three feats (at 20th level) and the bonus is considered morale.
I would prefer to save the exotic stuff for a specific archetype.
Saving throw feats added.
I didn't mention it before, but MF is now 3+ level, instead of half level.
I think it's close to being finished, and I have ideas for at least two archetypes to write for it.
Weapon Master (replaces Weapon Groups with a single exotic weapon, and can only use weapons from the same group as the exotic weapon. Allies can be granted proficiency when the fighter buffs them. Added insight bonus to AC against weapons from that specific group of weapons.)
Ultimate Fighter (puns!!! also a Brawler replacement based on combining that class with this one.)
So at level 10 he has 13 potential saving throw rerolls?
Or 13 uses of feat fetching?
Mmm.
I suggest an alternative.
Have his 'buff others' work off his Weapon Training bonus (so, up to 4 or 5 t/day eventually). If he takes Weapon SPec, +1 t/day.
Have his saving throw rerolls work off his Armor Training bonus (so, starts at 2/day, improves to 5/day by 19). For each saving throw feat, add +1 Reroll.
And leave Martial Flexibility at Bravery uses/day.
That separates them and makes sure you don't get ridiculous amounts of abuse of any one ability.
Alternatively, simply leave it 'constantly on' at +1, and have it buff anyone else using a weapon in his weapon groups. Maybe double it to +2 at 15. make the AoE large to reflect the fact it's a small bonus Marshal's Aura for my build was 5' radius/level - useful on a battlefield.
If he has feats that can improve one of the abilities, add more uses per day. For instance, something like Combat Genius, you get an additional feat when you use Martial Flexibility, and 1 more use/day, etc.
==Aelryinth
So at level 10 he has 13 potential saving throw rerolls?
Or 13 uses of feat fetching?Mmm.
I suggest an alternative.
Have his 'buff others' work off his Weapon Training bonus (so, up to 4 or 5 t/day eventually). If he takes Weapon SPec, +1 t/day.
Have his saving throw rerolls work off his Armor Training bonus (so, starts at 2/day, improves to 5/day by 19). For each saving throw feat, add +1 Reroll.
And leave Martial Flexibility at Bravery uses/day.
That separates them and makes sure you don't get ridiculous amounts of abuse of any one ability.
Alternatively, simply leave it 'constantly on' at +1, and have it buff anyone else using a weapon in his weapon groups. Maybe double it to +2 at 15. make the AoE large to reflect the fact it's a small bonus Marshal's Aura for my build was 5' radius/level - useful on a battlefield.
If he has feats that can improve one of the abilities, add more uses per day. For instance, something like Combat Genius, you get an additional feat when you use Martial Flexibility, and 1 more use/day, etc.
==Aelryinth
Is the abuse of one ability really that bad though?
With a cap of 26 uses per day, and each temporary feat costing a use, I can't see it being too much of a problem.I think playtesting would be required before imposing such a limit.
I dunno, man. 26 potential save rerolls is a LOT of rerolls. I.e. he's rolling twice on EVERY save.
People might kind of look askew at you. There would never be a reason not to use it. Feat-fishing is an emergency "I need this trick now" kind of thing, the buff to allies is situational dependent if there's another PC buffer.
But you can ALWAYS use two rolls on saves. Frustrate the pugwampis, if nothing else.
==Aelryinth
Would it be better then if I reverted back to 3+ 1/2 level, rather than full level?
No, it'd be better if you split them up so they didn't come from the same pool, and so couldn't be mass abused. That's how you control stuff like this.
Seriously, you only need to go fishing for a feat 5 or less times a day. If it has other uses, add a handful more, but keep it under control. Normally you'd just add 1-2 to acknowledge the versatility with a new power kicking in, and make them choose between uses, i.e. resource management.
How many times a day do you want him able to ultimately buff people? If it's more then 4, you may as well tone it down some and make it a constant ability. That's basically what I did. Hey, it's only +1 and if you're using a weapon in his groups, +2 if you're his follower...but it's ALWAYS THERE.
How many times do you want him to be able to reroll a save? If it's more then 5, you may as well make it a constant ability, or change it to something else.
Note that even 2 rerolls a day is more powerful then any feat (or the Trait that exceeds the feats). 'Luck' isn't really a thing here, so it should have a top end limit.
I can totally see a swashbuckler getting dual rolls all day, however, and not being able to lead worth squat.
==Aelryinth
Abilities have been split up, War Tactics added.
But for real, that rename?
Rename what?
==Aelryinth
The thread, preferably.
Also how's the fix?
I'm not so sure you need to give away feats for the leadership buff, but that's your flavor call.
I think the only thing you're missing now is some sort of accelerated HP healing option, and you've got a basically self-sufficient fighter type.
Something slow and steady, like I recommended over on the other fix. Like, 'when the fighter expends a use of Martial Flexibility, he converts an amount of damage equal to his fort save to non-lethal damage.'
Which is a pretty small amount of healing, all told...but you can make it scale, and it would work great if he was unconscious. You can scale it up quicker by making it 'fighter level + Fort save', or have it automatically happen at the end of a fight.
It's not an instant cure, but it means that he recovers quickly over time compared to any normal person.
You could also give him a boost when healed by external effects.
And that would like be all you need for class features. Now, you'd just need to work on some appropriate feats! ;)
==aelryinth
There is the Lay on Hands as a feat option, perhaps I can work on that.
There is the Lay on Hands as a feat option, perhaps I can work on that.
Martial Flexibility now only controls itself and Spellshatter.
Added an ability called second wind, which functions similarly to the 5th edition ability of the same name, scaling up in uses per day and number of dice rolled for some minimal healing. Doesn't work if fatigued or exhausted.
Implications of the build: Because a lot of the abilities are based on feats like Heroic Defiance and Heroic Recovery, it can now be implied that those feats are designed to be knock off ways to obtain lesser versions of the fighter's class abilities.
Which is only fair, as the ranger schools are now inferior knockoffs of the fighter class abilities.
Thematic question: If a fighter gets all the feats of his school, is there a prize for being a Master of the School?
==Aelryinth
Which is only fair, as the ranger schools are now inferior knockoffs of the fighter class abilities.
Thematic question: If a fighter gets all the feats of his school, is there a prize for being a Master of the School?
==Aelryinth
I would prefer not to give incentives for players to take feats they do not want, which is why the feats are presented as options. In fact, much of the point of the Combat Training feat options exist specifically to NOT force the player to take feats they do not want by allowing the player to bypass the prerequisites. The other abilities give the fighter thematic feats which remain useful, but often get set aside for options the player needs to fulfill a concept. The entire point of the build here is not only to give the fighter balance against his peers, but to empower the player to truly have the freedom of making a guy who can do all the things they envision in combat without feeling gypped in some way. Giving away many gateway feats like Combat Expertise not only accomplishes this, but is also in line with the idea of combining the existing materials into a coherent class.
Any ability designed as such would most likely supercede Combat Mastery as the capstone, and instead each Combat Training choice would grant a different capstone, ala Bloodlines or Mysteries.
Overall I do feel the fighter I have written maintains the simplicity of the old fighter, and such simplicity is the attraction of the class. Having a number of different trees to end the class on would take the fighter's write up from a 7 page document much further and in my opinion would be excessive.
Overall this fighter really offers nothing new to the game mechanic-wise. A design philosophy I borrowed from the ACG. When going through the fighter's abilities, you will notice that overall it is not a new class, but rather an amalgamation of it's best archetypes that players are often torn between.
Martial Master, Lore Warden, Tactician, Armor Master, and the Unbreakable all feature themes that ought to be universal to all fighters, so I sought to combine them.
The only new ability that exists here is the Second Wind ability, which is only new because it didn't previously exist in Pathfinder, but rather was borrowed from 5th edition.
That and Militant Expertise, which I completely wrote from scratch.
I tried to take extra care to not force the inclusion of subsystems like Stamina and the 3 Act Economy system because I want the fighter to be able to be incorporated into pre-existing games and materials. A number of abilities however directly relate to fatigue, which inherently ties the fighter to the Stamina system should it be implemented, but not directly requiring it.
My only regret is that some of the new materials cite feats from materials beyond the core book. I purposely stuck to the PFRPG line though for reasons that should be obvious in that if a player wanted to pick this up and play it the only thing they need to reference is the PRD. This is the reason Fencing Grace is not present on the Finesse style list. I encourage players and DMs to allow that feat to be implemented on the finesse list, but for the sake of this document existing it must follow the OGL.
There are issues with the artwork, but I have been lazy and I have not provided my own visualization of Valeros the iconic fighter. I may do that in the future. My apologies to Wayne and the RPG line guys if my use of the image is somehow breaking copyright, and I will of course remove it at the first request, same with the Pathfinder logo that I used as a header.
I do wish for this to be a universally agreeable fighter who doesn't impede on anyone's perception of the class so that it may be accepted as a community created fix to the class.
Actually, Style Mastery was something that came out of 3E Sword and Fist, if you remember.
Basically, for learning all the feats of a particular martial arts style, you ended up with a cool bonus feat.
So there is indeed precedent, and its a way to actually convey mastery of all of a Style's elements, rather then just the usual cherry-picking.
==Aelryinth
But is it good design?
Why wouldn't it be? It's a reward for being able to invest in a lot of different feats, that few classes can reasonably pull off.
If a fighter has to invest in 8 separate feats and max out a skill to become a true master of Heavy Swords, that's extremely impressive, and why shouldn't he be rewarded, especially if there's a couple feats in there he normally wouldn't take?
However, it's 'extra'. It's effectively a feat modifier, and outside the strict bounds of the class...unless you put a Fighter school requirement on it, of course!
For many of the feats, they were more focused on monks, so they had IUS in there as one of the feats, and they were more rewarding to open hand users.
==Aelryinth
I think a better approach to that idea would be a much more expansive fix to Combat Training, which as is, exists as an augmentation of Weapon Training.
If I were to do such a thing, I would redo the whole class, and have a series of abilities come online for each style.
Basically, it would be something like incorporating the archetypes specially designed for these styles and having each one be a "bloodline" option for the fighter.
I would probably just graft the abilities of the two handed warrior, archer, two weapon warrior, dragoon, etc into the main class, and those abilities would be based on a choice made at first level.
I still feel it to be bad design to incentify players to take options they don't want to unlock certain powers that they oughta have anyway.
Nah, it's not certain powers they 'oughta have'. It's 'extra stuff'.
And you can make the gifts very non-fighter, if you so choose. There's nothing that says the award has to be another pseudo-combat feat.
I mean, for Crushing/Cleaving, the award may be +2 Inherent Str and Con...well beyond the power of a feat, but also REALLY cool and thematic, and effectively just saving them some gold at a later level.
Maybe the TWF cap is being 0/-2 when TWF.
THings like that. You don't have to restrict it to Fighters, to be fair, but they should be the best at it.
==Aelryinth
Probably, I think the best thing to do would be creating new feats.
Nah, it's not certain powers they 'oughta have'. It's 'extra stuff'.
And you can make the gifts very non-fighter, if you so choose. There's nothing that says the award has to be another pseudo-combat feat.
I mean, for Crushing/Cleaving, the award may be +2 Inherent Str and Con...well beyond the power of a feat, but also REALLY cool and thematic, and effectively just saving them some gold at a later level.
Maybe the TWF cap is being 0/-2 when TWF.
THings like that. You don't have to restrict it to Fighters, to be fair, but they should be the best at it.
==Aelryinth
I am definitely thinking that I don't want to create feats that are just for the fighter, because those should just be class abilities.
I do like the idea of each style having it's own capstone ability, since Combat Mastery is ultimately the final extension of Combat Training, which is what brings the whole class together. I do think though, that such a design is not good design, as it would essentially make players feel like their class doesn't get good until 19-20th level.
I could consider removing the entire table, and instead implementing the style abilities from each archetype, but that would essentially just recreate the archetypes which I intend to do anyway.
Calling it the Combat Master and have it work like Wildblooded, Oathbound, Subschools/Domains, and other archetypes which have many iterations of themselves, and all essentially replace the same thing for the class.
ah ah!
Don't be thinking like that!
All classes have powers that are 'just for them'. Or at least, not for the great majority of others.
This is because they get feats that REFERENCE class abilities...and fighters do NOT.
Seriously, how many feats do you see that reference weapon training, bravery, or armor training?
None.
Yet we've got feats that modify a paladin's detect evil, a cleric's channel, a wizard's arcane bond, and a barb's rage, in addition to favored terrain and favored enemy.
Weapon Spec is basically a fighter-only feat, natch.
So, this wouldn't be a feat, it would be a School Capstone, which would be something completely different. If you can't take the school, you don't get the capstone. ANd making it like 8 feats long is going to deny it to pretty much everyone but a fighter, in the end, especially if a couple of the feats are just niche.
So, yeah, you can make feats that are fighter only. Just do what Extra Mercy, Extra Rage Power, Favored Enemy Defense, and Extra Talent, do...Reference only fighter class abilities as pre-reqs.
This also neatly gets around the 'my levels count as fighter levels for X', where X just means Weapon Spec.
Now, just require Weapon Training I or II. If they don't have it, tough beans.
==Aelryinth
ah ah!
Don't be thinking like that!
All classes have powers that are 'just for them'. Or at least, not for the great majority of others.
This is because they get feats that REFERENCE class abilities...and fighters do NOT.
Seriously, how many feats do you see that reference weapon training, bravery, or armor training?
None.Yet we've got feats that modify a paladin's detect evil, a cleric's channel, a wizard's arcane bond, and a barb's rage, in addition to favored terrain and favored enemy.
Weapon Spec is basically a fighter-only feat, natch.
So, this wouldn't be a feat, it would be a School Capstone, which would be something completely different. If you can't take the school, you don't get the capstone. ANd making it like 8 feats long is going to deny it to pretty much everyone but a fighter, in the end, especially if a couple of the feats are just niche.
So, yeah, you can make feats that are fighter only. Just do what Extra Mercy, Extra Rage Power, Favored Enemy Defense, and Extra Talent, do...Reference only fighter class abilities as pre-reqs.
This also neatly gets around the 'my levels count as fighter levels for X', where X just means Weapon Spec.
Now, just require Weapon Training I or II. If they don't have it, tough beans.
==Aelryinth
It's doable, hut how could you make the feat not only worth taking, but investing into?
Well, I use Weapon Spec very simply.
"Weapon Focus: You gain +1 TH with a specific type of weapon.
If you have Weapon Training, you instead double your Weapon Training bonus with that weapon. THis is called Weapon Specialization."
Bing, done.
And it's why I don't allow replicating Weapon Spec across every Weapon in a weapon group, heh!
But that's all you do - Requirement: Armor Training +2. Or Bravery +4. Or Weapon Training +3.
Easy peesy. And you can PRECISELY target the minimum level you want it available at thereby.
For School Mastery: You must be proficient in all feats of your School and have Weapon Training +3.
YOu gain a +2 bonus to your 3 lowest ability scores, and a +2 bonus to another ability score of your choice.
----See how easy that is? They can earn it at level 12 at the earliest, but it is their choice, its not overblown (basically, a +2 to their highest stat is the real reward). But it is an accomplishment that only a Master of a School gets.
Exoskeleton: Req: Armor Training +3.
You increase the enhancement bonus of Strength, Dexterity and Constitution magical items by +2 while wearing any suit of magical armor, up to a maximum bonus of +8.
etc etc.
==Aelryinth