Unimportant intro filled with backstory:
Does anyone have any already-made houserules that allow for accuracy/inaccuracy with AOE spells at a range?
Having put some thought into it, but no playtesting, the first thing that popped to mind was something like this:
* Caster makes a ranged attack roll (could possibly be an int-based roll instead of dex?) with all applicable modifiers to target a square or grid intersection at AC 5.
* When past [some number of feet], then,
* Caster applies a modifier to their roll of ...[I have no idea how much per some number of feet]
* If the caster misses, apply splash rules for direction, and go a number of squares equal to [some coefficient of how much they missed].
Any thoughts? Any better ideas?
Thanks in advance! :D
(otherwise wooden ships would have a very hard time surviving!)
Why does everyone assume that in a world full of magic that ships would not be crafted with fire resistances for just such a reason?
I mean honestly the only reason our sea vessels in our real world are not all fireproof is that we don't have magic. If we did I would bet every ship in the worlds navies would be fire immune.
I know we try to make then as fire resistant as possible with our science.
Haven't done anything with accuracy or inaccuracy on spells like this, though I do have my players roll when they cast things like fireball or burning hands. I use the GameMastery critical hit and critical fumble decks, so if they roll a natural 20 and succeed at a concentration check (the 15 + 2xspell level) they get a critical spell card, or if they roll a 1 and fail the concentration check, lose the spell, and they get a critical fumble. It's been pretty fun so far. Actually had one player last night get back to back fumble then crit.
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Believe there were some rules in dragon magazine or dungeon magazine about aoe with accuracy...but heh...usually best way to block aoe stuffs is to block line of sight. Yes, you can shoot blindly without seeing correctly where their target is , and most likely miss.
Basic spells like Obscuring mist are perfect to block line of sight of people who are aoe happy, while your enemies/npc re position.
Rather than altering the hit mechanics, enforce the perception mechanics and the targeting mechanics. You cannot target what you cannot see.
"Landing spells with accuracy down to the millimeter at ranges of a thousand feet or more" is only possible if your, the GM, allow them that level of accuracy.
Have then roll appropriate perception rolls for details. If you cannot clearly make out one man you cannot target one man.
If all you can see at 1000 feet is the front of the ship or it's sails you cannot target the man in the wheelhouse at the stern.
If you can get access to the old Spelljammer rules they have interesting rules to cover extreme long range fighting from ship to ship with spells and such. Would be a reasonable resource for ship building as well.
Just ignore the phlogiston rules where all the atmosphere is explosive.
Why does everyone assume that in a world full of magic that ships would not be crafted with fire resistances for just such a reason?
A very fair question! :D
It is largely because the world in which I play is a medium-magic world *at best*, and not the hugely, magic-dripping-off-the-walls setting of Golarion (or similar settings), so magic isn't common enough to make most ships fire resistant! The more important ones would be, certainly, but that would require a lot of magic and a lot of expense!
So sadly, this simple fix is not applicable in my case! I do appreciate you pointing it out, however. :)
Puna'chong, off-topic, but helpful! I will certainly implement something like this! Thanks! :D
Basic spells like Obscuring mist are perfect to block line of sight of people who are aoe happy, while your enemies/npc re position.
Rather than altering the hit mechanics, enforce the perception mechanics and the targeting mechanics. You cannot target what you cannot see.
That's an interesting concept! I'd like to pursue this. The situations will mostly be at sea where sight lanes are, well, ginormous, or, at least, I was under the impression that such was the case. I'm not a sailor of any sort, myself, but are the sight lanes on sea not very large?
"Landing spells with accuracy down to the millimeter at ranges of a thousand feet or more" is only possible if your, the GM, allow them that level of accuracy.
Well...there I have to disagree, unless I've missed something critical? A thousand feet is only a fifth of a mile. What prevents players from seeing that far? In my example, players were shooting up at the air, and picking a spot a thousand feet up directly between three flying combatants to hit all three with a fireball, which is allowed per the rules but makes little sense logically. The ability to pick out a target in space with no reference points around it is quite absurd, but does seem supported by the rules. Again, unless I missed something? As far as I knew, there WERE no rules to just see something that isn't actually hiding! D:
Have then roll appropriate perception rolls for details. If you cannot clearly make out one man you cannot target one man.
If all you can see at 1000 feet is the front of the ship or it's sails you cannot target the man in the wheelhouse at the stern.
That's all well and good, but if the goal is winning, a fireball too the ship that does enough damage to damage the ship, burn the sails, even set the boat on fire is far more effective than targeting "that guy in the wheelhouse," yes? I mean, taking out the sails alone makes them sitting ducks, and that can be helpful for a variety of reasons depending on the employed tactics of the marauders.
If you can get access to the old Spelljammer rules they have interesting rules to cover extreme long range fighting from ship to ship with spells and such. Would be a reasonable resource for ship building as well.
Ooh, that would be nice. That seems to be right about what I"m looking for, though I would prefer something a little less complex than that sounds. I wonder if I can find someone with those rules!
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They would have to be making perception checks I think? Perception says "+1/10'" for modifiers and the DC to notice a character at distance is 0 but 1000/10=Perception DC 100 to even notice a person from 1000' away... So targeting a square won't be any easier than that for AOE
Hm, that's interesting. I always interpreted perception as being opposed to stealth ("Perception has a number of uses, the most common of which is an opposed check versus an opponent's Stealth check to notice the opponent and avoid being surprised."), so I always assumed that DC of 0 to take into account a figure attempting to hide but unable to, as opposed to something not at all hiding.
Clearly this DC is completely worthless for long ranges, as one cannot fail to notice a ship the size of a house a thousand feet away if one is interested in seeing it, even though that would be a DC of, what, 992 at the most favorable?
So I was thinking of something along the lines of that, but actually reasonable. Perhaps -1 to the roll per forty feet? That's the bonus to range gained for each caster level, after all.
Any thoughts on the proposed house rule, stated first in the original post and refined slightly in this one?
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That's an interesting concept! I'd like to pursue this. The situations will mostly be at sea where sight lanes are, well, ginormous, or, at least, I was under the impression that such was the case. I'm not a sailor of any sort, myself, but are the sight lanes on sea not very large?
If the sea is calm and the skies are clear, yes, it's easy to see for miles, but if there's even a moderate amount of wind, the waves (and, therefore, the ships) will be going up and down and side to side, making accurate targeting at ranges beyond a few hundred feet almost impossible.
What spells are they casting that can reach a thousand feet though? Fireball, for instance, can only reach that distance at level 15 or higher, unless you Enlarge it, making it available by level 8 or so, barring one of the metamagic cost-reduction techniques.
To combine these two points, if one of your players wants to hit a moving target between the waves at such a great distance, it is not unreasonable to use the narrow passage clause to have them roll a ranged touch-attack against the waves in order to avoid premature detonation. Tie the AC of the wave to the wind speed somehow, using the Beaufort Scale as a general guide:
DC 5 for <31mph winds (tops out at 13ft waves);
DC 10 for 31-38mph winds (13-19ft waves);
DC 15 for 38-46mph winds (18-25ft waves);
DC 20 for 46-55mph winds (23-32ft waves);
DC 25 for 55-64mph winds (29-41ft waves);
DC 30 for 64-73mph winds (37-52ft waves);
DC 35 for 73-80mph winds (>46ft waves);
DC 40 for 80-90mph winds (Wikipedia doesn't go higher);
DC 45 for 90-100mph winds, etc.
Of course such violent weather would provoke concentration checks, as well as probably including driving rain, hail and fog banks that would also reduce visibility, if you really want to get into it.
TL;DR, on a clear day, your wizard should have no problem hitting an enemy ship (because magic), but on a rough day, it's up to the GM.
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What spells are they using that they can actually target at that range? A long-range spell only hits 400+(level*40) feet. That's the maximum range, not a range increment.
As for fire-proof ships: take a good look at the damaging object rules. It's one thing to inflict some damage on an object, but setting it on fire doesn't necessarily happen. And most objects have a surprisingly large amount of HP. Also, Hardness.
A single fireball might damage a ship, but it won't sink it. And given how few spells have that much range, damage control is doable.
It's also quite sensible that military ships, as well as ships used by merchants plying far-off and dangerous waters, would use the hardest (= most HP and hardness) wood they can find.
Cuuniyevo, that's an excellent suggestion. I will definitely tie that in. Thank you! And, yes, I'm more expecting this to be an issue during calm days at sea than rough ones. With rough ones and heavy rain, no fireballs will be fired unless they want to risk them detonating three inches from them. :)
Ascalaphus, I'm looking mainly at this passage:
"Energy Attacks: Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects."
So pitch- or tar-coated wood is very flammable, from what I understand (again not claiming to be an expert; this is what I've heard, PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong), so full fire damage to a ship sounds fair to me. And canvas is a type of cloth. So for the most part, a ship takes full damage from a fireball.
I don't know what the thickness of the wood is on a wooden sailing ship, but at 10 hp per inch, I suppose as long as it's thick enough, then it wouldn't immediately be destroyed by a fireball or similar effect. That is something I need to research next for the campaign, which is largely still nascent. A single fireball does seem as though it would cripple a ship, however, by destroying sails and rigging pretty effectively with zero chance to miss in most RAW situations.
However, regardless of the destructibility of ships, I do still want a houserule for aiming AOE spells, and would like some help refining what I do have so far (or a usable alternative). :)
Oh, ans Ascalaphus, I was being somewhat hyperbolic. I believe it was 500 feet in the air, well within the range of the lowest powered fireball, but straight into the air, with zero reference points. Picking out a point in space like that should be close to impossible, but it was essentially guaranteed per RAW.
And I know there are no range increments per spells. That's why I'm in the house rule forum rather than the rules forum. :D
Cuuniyevo: That's an amazing idea. Thank you. I will tweak that a bit and add it to the rules of my own seafaring campaign. Awesome work!
Oh, here on Earth we can see out at sea at about 20mi before the Earth's curve takes over. So adjust for sight based on something like that as well.
That is actually very incorrect. Distance to horizon, given an observer on the ground with eye level at 5 ft 7 in (1.70 m), the horizon is at a distance of 2.9 miles (4.7 km).
For an observer standing on a hill or tower 100 feet (30 m) in height, the horizon is at a distance of 12.2 miles (19.6 km).
Hence why lookouts are in the crows nest or on the top masts as the higher you go the better your view over the curvature of the earth is.
From the deck of a good sized ship use about a 15 foot height off the water as a reference for where the main deck is, making your distance to horizon about 8-9 miles.
Rough seas and inclement weather conditions of course can radically alter this.
Unimportant intro filled with backstory:
** spoiler omitted **Does anyone have any already-made houserules that allow for accuracy/inaccuracy with AOE spells at a range?
Having put some thought into it, but no playtesting, the first thing that popped to mind was something like this:
* Caster makes a ranged attack roll (could possibly be an int-based roll instead of dex?) with all applicable modifiers to target a square or grid intersection at AC 5.
* When past [some number of feet], then,
* Caster applies a modifier to their roll of ...[I have no idea how much per some number of feet]
* If the caster misses, apply splash rules for direction, and go a number of squares equal to [some coefficient of how much they missed].Any thoughts? Any better ideas?
Thanks in advance! :D
I've actually come up against this as a GM before. Players would say, "I cast fireball so its hits all the enemies but not my allies."
I would have them make a Spellcraft check. The DC's were written down somewhere, but I've since lost them. But it makes sense to me that aiming your AoE spells would be part of Spellcraft.
"Check: Spellcraft is used whenever your knowledge and skill of the technical art of casting a spell or crafting a magic item comes into question"