Reworking Skills

[Opuk0]

I was recently introduced to 4e, and after seeing its skill system, I honestly think it's leaps and bounds ahead of Pathfinders in terms of function and form.

Would you prefer to play in a PF game where this is the skill list rather than the list of 40 that PF has?

Acrobatics: Perform acrobatics stunts, balance, escape artist, reduce fall damage
Athletics: Climb, escape from grab, jump, swim
Bluff: Bluffing and disguise
Craft
Diplomacy
Heal
Intimidate
Knowledge (Arcana)
-Combines with Spellcraft and UMD
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Knowledge (Engineering)
-Combines with Disable Device
Knowledge (History)
Knowledge (Local)
Knowledge (Nature)
-Combines with Handle Animal and K. Geography
Knowledge (Nobility)
Knowledge (Planes)
Knowledge (Religion)
Linguistics
Perception
-Combines with Tracking
Sense Motive
Subterfuge: Sleight of Hand and Stealth

[wraithstrike]

No. I like PF's better. Athletics combines too many things for me, but so does stealth in PF. I wish it had stayed like it was in 3.5.

Being able to lie and disguise yourself or not even related so it makes no sense for those to be combined for me. I understand it makes book keeping a little easier, but it kills immersion for me.

There are others also, but I think I have said enough for now.

[Malwing]

Same here. I would like to combine use magic device and separate spot and listen from perception but that's it. I'm also in favor of ranks instead of the 'have it or don't that 5e has.

[Bardarok]

I feel like Athletics need to be combined because Climb and Jump become pretty useless once the mage can make folks fly and Swim is pretty situational.

I use these in my homebrew games.

Adventuring Skills
Acrobatics (PF acrobatics -jumps, escape artis)
Athletics (climb, jump, swim)
Deception (bluff, disguise)
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Fly
Heal
Intimidate
Knowledge(Arcane) (Arcane and Spellcraft)
Knowledge(Divine) (Divine and Planes)
Knowledge(Culture) (Linguistics, History, Nobility, Local)
Knowledge(Nature) (Nature, Geography, Survival)
Knowledge(Warfare) (Profession(Soldier), use this for getting misc. tactical advantages in combat)
Perception
Perform
Ride
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Stealth

Downtime Skills
Craft(Alchemy)
Craft(Armaments) (Weapons and Armor)
Craft(Occult) (Homebrewed magic items)
Profession, also appraise, never a class skill but I provide a background bonus for free at character creation.

[Dazzlerdal]

For me the overhauling of skills also included removing the domination of magic over the skill system.

Certain creatures can fly and have a skill that represents their ability to fly. A wizards casts a spell and off he goes.

Certain creatures can swim with skill checks, others have swim speeds, the two do not necessarily mix well and having a swim speed is definitely better. The wizard just casts a spell and off he goes.

Stealth allows you to hide yourself from detection under certain circumstances. Perception allows you to spot hidden things. Wizard spells however grant an effect that allows you to hide from anything but magic, and other spells grant effects that allow you to perceive anything, including magic.

Magic breaks all the rules, rather than complements them. So i changed the spells so that they use the existing skill system rather than break it - Invisibility grants a bonus to Stealth, True Seeing grants a bonus to Perception and Insight, Spider Climb grants a bonus to Athletics(climb) checks, Charm grants an immediate Diplomacy (Influence) check with a bonus added.

That way casting characters can do exactly the same as other characters do in the same way, but with a better chance of success, as long as they have the right spell.

I also preferred the 4e approach to skills and lumped multiple skills together. I even had several skills duplicate the actions of other skills - Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate all allow you to influence people. Athletics and Acrobatics both allow you to Climb and Jump.

Perception represents a character's ability to notice detail, having to specialise in either listening or spotting seems a little forced. Stealth represents your ability to go unnoticed, again having to specialise in stealthing your sound or visual clues seems a little forced, especially when you can't do both at the same time. With a limited number of skill points it is only sensible to have less skills that do more rather than the opposite. Having lots of skills makes the entire skill system less useful because there is very little chance someone in the party will have devoted enough points into a skill to use it, and it makes some characters completely unable to use the skill system because they only have a few skill points.

I then went several steps further and gave each skill its own Knowledge check. I removed skill points/ranks and replaced it with feats that provide a +5 bonus and determine if you are trained in a skill or not. Then skills with different areas of specialisation (such as the Knowledge or Craft skills) i made so that you make a Knowledge check, doesnt matter what the specialisation is, you can make a Knowledge check on anything. If you are Trained in the skill and its your chosen area of expertise you get the +5 bonus, if not its half that (round down). That way you dont need to have 20 different knowledge and craft skills.

[Drejk]

Dazzlerdal wrote:

Certain creatures can fly and have a skill that represents their ability to fly. A wizards casts a spell and off he goes.

That's not how it works. Fly skill represents your control over your flying - wizard needs to make Fly checks while performing complex aerobatics too. He gets a bonus equal to half his caster level but unless he actually invested points into Fly or happens to have above average Dexterity his options in air are limited, so that particular skill is in no way made obsolete by magic.

[Dazzlerdal]

Well flying aside, Magic still breaks all the rules and undermines the skill system.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

I combined all the Crafts into one skill, all the Knowledges into one skill, and all the Professions+Perform into one skill. You determine which specialties you have by choosing them at a rate of one per rank placed in the skill. Total skill bonus is used for all specialties.

I know it breaks immersion for some people, but if you're playing in one of my games for immersion I have somehow badly mislead you. :P

[Raltus]

Why not just remove the casters abilities to cast skill spells?

This right away makes skills more useful, if you want to increase the DC of skill abilities remove the +3 you get from trained skills.

Lastly give fighters 4+ and a few skills that you can pick from to customize them differently.

Another thing is, don't allow a spell caster without the right knowledge skill to make a spell craft check. So if the cleric doesn't have knowledge arcana he can't identify arcane spells being cast.

[Laurefindel]

Interesting re-hash, especially the concept of downtime skills

While you're at it, get rid of fly. If a flying creature needs to evade a voley of arrows or catch a person in mid-flight, have it roll acrobatics. Exhausting long-distance flight or sprints for the higher grounds could be off athletics.

Basically you have a skill for "do it quick" or "requires agility" and another skill for "do it far/long" or "requires endurance".

You can then apply those two to swimming (execute an olympic dive or swim agaist the river's current), to jumping (land on that 3 in pole or jump for your life in heavy armor), to running (evade the bad guy in the alleys or run a marathon). And, why not, to fly as well.

As for downtime skills, I suggest to add some kind of Socialize skill for those information gathering downtime moments, for making contacts with the evasive thieves' guild and for implanting romors about the queen being sterile or whatever.

[Puna'chong]

Unchained is actually looking to do something that a lot of people have been wanting with the rogue: skill checks that act as/beat magic. Also, I think 5e actually does the skill overhaul better than 4e did, but the problem with trying to adapt it to Pathfinder is that the systems are pretty different. You'd have to overhaul more than just the skills.

[Raltus]

I think the actual set of skills are just fine. The problem becomes either the skill DC's being so easily over come (A wizard with +4 int mod @ first level+1 point in+3 from being proficient in the skill is +8 @ first level) makes some skills so trivial that they really aren't even necessary as you cannot "fail" them persay.

Or people having not enough points and failing to meet the DC even at low levels.

I konw they are supposed to be a challenge but skills don't be come a challenge if someone has +10 to a skill at 2nd level or so.

Maybe if the we take away the +3 proficiency and just go with points added and the relevant modifier it will make skills a bit more of a challenge.