|
Sup all, been a while since I showed off all this jazz, figured I'd get people's opinion on it once again though. Just some TOB themed stuff that I thought would be pretty hype.
The Strategist: The warblade version
The Strider: The swordsage version
The Templar: The crusader version
The Technique Compendium: The collection of all techniques.
There's plenty of new styles of disciplines (Scarlet Bravo, Peerless Sniper) as well as others that draw on others (Steel Gospel, White Fang), so give it a look and let me know what you think.
Dot! Looks like you did away with the skill check abilities from the short glance I gave it which makes me intrigued! It was one of the big failings I felt in Path of War.
Which is funny, because the skill-based abilities I felt were one of the coolest things about ToB/PoW and I want/ed more of them, and felt it was and still feel it is a direction that a lot more could be done with.
Still, I'll give this a look... sometime-ish. Sadly can't make any promises =/
Man. A lot of this stuff is really O to the P. You know that, right?
Like: I sort of think of ToB as being a re-balance of casters and martial characters. I am just making sure that you are aware that a lot of this material is going to obsolete a bunch of existing classes and builds. If that is fine with you then I guess it is fine with me.
One note regardless of that: why would tactical analysis give an enemy a penalty rather than give nearby allies a bonus? That seems weird.
Which is funny, because the skill-based abilities I felt were one of the coolest things about ToB/PoW and I want/ed more of them, and felt it was and still feel it is a direction that a lot more could be done with.
Ugh. It's a horrid idea from any sort of balance perspective. Remember the truenamer from 3.5? Same idea. It never hits a nice balance, it's either too far to either extreme.
It's also generally way too easy to boost skill numbers into the stratosphere leading to major issues and why placing them for opposed skill checks leads to nothing but heartache.
|
|
Dot! Looks like you did away with the skill check abilities from the short glance I gave it which makes me intrigued! It was one of the big failings I felt in Path of War.
To be honest, I never checked out POW, and I know I probably shouldn't due to having my ideas tainted. I think I remembered hearing that POW calls their users 'technicians' as well, although this homebrew was started while POW was in beta. Actually glad to see it's released now.
Which is funny, because the skill-based abilities I felt were one of the coolest things about ToB/PoW and I want/ed more of them, and felt it was and still feel it is a direction that a lot more could be done with.
Still, I'll give this a look... sometime-ish. Sadly can't make any promises =/
As Aleron said, skills are crazy easy to pump through a lot of different ways, although I'll admit that I wish skills had more uses at base. It almost made me want to build a 'rogue' style that included more skill based ones, maybe I'll get on that later.
Check over it if you can, but don't make it a priority. I'm just looking for feedback since this has been a fun little project for me.
Man. A lot of this stuff is really O to the P. You know that, right?
Like: I sort of think of ToB as being a re-balance of casters and martial characters. I am just making sure that you are aware that a lot of this material is going to obsolete a bunch of existing classes and builds. If that is fine with you then I guess it is fine with me.
One note regardless of that: why would tactical analysis give an enemy a penalty rather than give nearby allies a bonus? That seems weird.
To be fair, a lot of stuff in TOB was seen as OP as well, which is why it was panned by some people, and it ALSO obsoleted a lot of existing classes (aside from simplicity of play, would you play a Fighter over a Warblade?), so in that respect, I don't really mind that this would void the base classes, although I don't think this overshadows the PF Paladin at all. The Fighter/Rogue/Monk, yes, but those were meh to begin with (just like in 3.5), so overwriting them doesn't really hold up as a strong bar of balance. I don't know how familiar you are with the TOB though, since it really seemed about obsoleting old/less powerful classes just like this.
I'll admit that tactical should give a bonus, I'll change that in a bit, might change 'Strider' to 'Striker' too, since that's the name I'm least happy with.
To me, these are meant to be PF TOB, which means their power would be stepped up a little, but there's some things that are straight depowered versions of TOB stuff. Look at the Clarion Commander's 5th level technique, Quicksilver Momentum. It gives an extra move action, and if you're mastering it, it gives an extra standard action, and it cost your move action to do so. This is a HARD drop from White Raven Tactics. There's other examples, like how easy it is to turn invisible, but the point is to still give some TOB styled powers, but at appropriate levels.
Maybe I'll work on another school later, have some fun messing around.
Well, the things in here are certainly a lot of fun. And I also think that a lot of cavalier and bard builds will be overpowered by Clarion Commander techniques. And I think the sniper may ultimately outmatch the gunslinger because free reloads with muskets are dope the strategist has broader options.
I am also going to say that the Brawler, Slayer, Ninja, and Ranger become mostly outmoded as well unless you want your character wants to do very specific things in exchange for reduced combat aptitude. Though a ranger with quick enemy (or whatever that spell is) and equipment focused on expanding spell casting options is a very real force to be reckoned with.
Paladin is hard to beat, though. Litanies and lay-on hands are pretty dope.
My god, man: never out matched? That is ridiculous. You can burn 4 points to gain twice your wisdom to attack and damage rolls?
Give that man a double barreled musket or a bow and watch the world weep.
|
|
Well, the things in here are certainly a lot of fun. And I also think that a lot of cavalier and bard builds will be overpowered by Clarion Commander techniques. And I think the sniper may ultimately outmatch the gunslinger because free reloads with muskets are dope the strategist has broader options.
I am also going to say that the Brawler, Slayer, Ninja, and Ranger become mostly outmoded as well unless you want your character wants to do very specific things in exchange for reduced combat aptitude. Though a ranger with quick enemy (or whatever that spell is) and equipment focused on expanding spell casting options is a very real force to be reckoned with.
Paladin is hard to beat, though. Litanies and lay-on hands are pretty dope.
My god, man: never out matched? That is ridiculous. You can burn 4 points to gain twice your wisdom to attack and damage rolls?
Give that man a double barreled musket or a bow and watch the world weep.
Cavy I'll give you, but he's T4, and anyone using C. Commander is T3, on par with 2/3rds caster. While C. Commander makes a better in battle buffer than a Bard, a Bard has a lot of out of combat utility that neither of the classes that get C. Commander have, as well as magic that gives it other utility. I'd use a Bard as a non combative buffer, while a C. Commander would be more of an in combat general.
Brawler/Slayer/Ninja are still T4 to me, and I'd put them below the original TOB crew for that reason. Ninja's probably still viable even compared to these (invisible blade is HYPE), but it's a hard fight.
And Never Outmatched requires BURNED points, so you're not getting those back. I think I forgot to set a duration on that, although it's basically the same duration as Heroic Potential, so you're not getting a lot of extra value from it.
And reload time is honestly where it should be, as you can get reloads for guns down to free actions with Alchemical rounds and Rapid Reload. this just cuts out the feat tax.
If we're being fair, Double Weapons are the problem, not reloading. Double muskets/pistols should have never been made, and they're what make the Gunslinger so terrifying. I think I want to include a limit on Augment times that they can only last 5 mins to keep people from scumming duration, might need to change that later.
I do appreciate the input, as I've had to look over a lot of things you've mentioned as well as a lot of other things that were left from older drafts (style dabbler had some garbo left in it) and some of the techs were a little too strong/weak, so did some looking over those too.
Well, the things in here are certainly a lot of fun. And I also think that a lot of cavalier and bard builds will be overpowered by Clarion Commander techniques. And I think the sniper may ultimately outmatch the gunslinger because free reloads with muskets are dope the strategist has broader options.
I am also going to say that the Brawler, Slayer, Ninja, and Ranger become mostly outmoded as well unless you want your character wants to do very specific things in exchange for reduced combat aptitude. Though a ranger with quick enemy (or whatever that spell is) and equipment focused on expanding spell casting options is a very real force to be reckoned with.
Paladin is hard to beat, though. Litanies and lay-on hands are pretty dope.
My god, man: never out matched? That is ridiculous. You can burn 4 points to gain twice your wisdom to attack and damage rolls?
Give that man a double barreled musket or a bow and watch the world weep.
Cavy I'll give you, but he's T4, and anyone using C. Commander is T3, on par with 2/3rds caster. While C. Commander makes a better in battle buffer than a Bard, a Bard has a lot of out of combat utility that neither of the classes that get C. Commander have, as well as magic that gives it other utility. I'd use a Bard as a non combative buffer, while a C. Commander would be more of an in combat general.
Brawler/Slayer/Ninja are still T4 to me, and I'd put them below the original TOB crew for that reason. Ninja's probably still viable even compared to these (invisible blade is HYPE), but it's a hard fight.
And Never Outmatched requires BURNED points, so you're not getting those back. I think I forgot to set a duration on that, although it's basically the same duration as Heroic Potential, so you're not getting a lot of extra value from it.
And reload time is honestly where it should be, as you can get reloads for guns down to free actions with Alchemical rounds and Rapid Reload. this just cuts out the feat tax.
If...
Well, bows can many shot and add strength to damage and I feel like the double weapons have a lot of built in restrictions to them usually. In general, you may not want to use the double weapons with alchemical rounds because the misfire rate gets a little hard to deal with, especially when you are taking attack penalties that have a good shot of making some of your attacks miss on the back end of your full attack. It also probably requires you to re-spec at some point in your career since double muskets and the like are not available in the early game so you will need to switch over your regular musket weapon focus and rapid reload feats. I will also note that double pistols (the thing you can usually build for full attacks) often going to draw you into melee with their 20 foot range. I think it is also safe to say that the normal feat tax of reloading firearms is one of their most important balancing points.
Your sniper rules remove both the reload disadvantage of the musket but also extends its already impressive range. You also remove the gold and misfire cost of alchemical rounds. Sniper beats gunslinger, man.
Also, where do you describe burned points? I feel as though I've missed it.
|
|
Well, bows can many shot and add strength to damage and I feel like the double weapons have a lot of built in restrictions to them usually. In general, you may not want to use the double weapons with alchemical rounds because the misfire rate gets a little hard to deal with, especially when you are taking attack penalties that have a good shot of making some of your attacks miss on the back end of your full attack.
Note that aside from 'Genius Offensive', there's no way to add a stat to damage. The things that makes gunslingers TERRIFYING is that Dex to damage. That's the only thing that makes them straight up monsters on the damage calcs, and 'Genius Offensive' states that it can't be combined with any other stat to damage (such as composite longbows). I might change it so 'Genius Offensive' doesn't change the attacking stat, just which stat you're adding to damage, although Int is overall a less vital stat.
It also probably requires you to re-spec at some point in your career since double muskets and the like are not available in the early game so you will need to switch over your regular musket weapon focus and rapid reload feats. I will also note that double pistols (the thing you can usually build for full attacks) often going to draw you into melee with their 20 foot range. I think it is also safe to say that the normal feat tax of reloading firearms is one of their most important balancing points.
Retraining isn't a huge thing, and it's the same problem for anyone aside from the Sniper. This doesn't really let you start with your double weapons to begin with, so it'll always be an issue for games starting lower level aside from retraining Rapid Reload too. And if we're talking melee range, you'd need to be about 6th level (20 ft boost) to get out of normal movement range, and 15th level (50 ft boost) to get out of standard charging range, and that's assuming you're facing medium humanoids. Most engagements start around 0 to 60 feet away in my games and in most APs I've seen, so the range was honestly my way of giving a bonus that seems useful but in normal play really isn't. Honestly I could change the range bonus without feeling bad at all, so if you have any ideas, I'd be fine with listening.
Your sniper rules remove both the reload disadvantage of the musket but also extends its already impressive range. You also remove the gold and misfire cost of alchemical rounds. Sniper beats gunslinger, man.
To me here, if you're going Musket, you're going Musket Master, so you're already getting free action reloads. I'll give you that the range is a nice increase for the musket more than the pistols, since you're out of charge range at 9th level (which is decently deep into the game), but you're still not getting Dex to damage, which is the biggest draw of the Gunslinger. If you're not using a swift action at the beginning of every combat to use 'Genius Offensive', your damage is taking a HUGE dip, in which Gunslinger DESTROYS Sniper without requiring an augment and an action to accomplish it. To me, that's a fair trade off.
Also, where do you describe burned points? I feel as though I've missed it.
It's actually at the bottom of Cunning Machinations, Heroic Potential, and Divine Inspiration:
Choosing to battle with brain rather than brawn, the Strategist is a master of the battlefield, able to use their advanced intelligence to lead to victory. At 1st level the Strategist gains 3 Style points at the beginning of the day. At 2nd level, and every three levels after, they gain an additional style point.
The Strategist relies on their style points to use their many various techniques. The Strategist must expend 1 Style point to use any technique they know. Whenever a point is expended, it may be recovered by resting for 5 minutes.
The Strategist may also decide to ‘burn’ a style point, including an expended style Point, as a free action to receive a bonus on their attack and damage rolls equal to their Intelligence modifier (minimum +1) until the beginning of their next round. A Style point that is burned is unavailable for the rest of the day, require the Strategist to rest for 8 hours to regain it.
Burning it is for a slight spike in damage and accuracy, but removes that point from being used all day. Not something I expect to be exercised a lot, but it's an option, and it's more hardcore than being expended, since those come back after a short rest.