I'm re-posting this idea, as I have recently regained my interest in the concept of the class. I originally posted the class back in March of this year, and I got some great feed back and assistance from Excaliburproxy, but, I got one other person who gave feedback, but the idea was not either well-liked, no one was sure what to put, or the class didn't seem to be complete enough. Some ideas will be brand new, some will come from advice from Excalibur and some from the class by Drejek (I can remove these upon request) (Runethane: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pbgd?Runethane-Base-Class#1
The Rune Knight; A member of an ancient order of warriors who knows the ancient art of Rune Carving. They rely on martial combat training and skills, bolstered by their Runes, to be an effective combatant.
HD: d8
BAB: 3/4
Good saves: Will & Reflex
Bad save: Fortitude
Proficiencies: Rune Knights are proficient with the Rapier, Longsword, Short Sword, combat scabbard, Short Spear, Longspear, Warhammer, Great sword, Bastard Sword, and the Long Bow.
They are proficient in only Light Armor, and the Light Shield and Buckler.
Skills: Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha) Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Planes), Knowledge (Religion), Heal (Wis), Linguistics (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Use Magic Device (Cha), Disable Device (Dex)
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New Mechanic: [Rune]*
Runes are not subject to arcane spell failure, as they are not spoken and do not require hand gestures to activate.
*Rune will be included after class features.
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A Rune Knight begins play with a 3 runes. She may have a number of runes drawn equal to 3 + (positive) intelligence modifier, but, only one active. She may have a second rune active at level 2 and an additional active rune every 2 levels thereafter, to a maximum of 11 at level 20.
Cunning reflex: A Rune Knight is trained to be quick, both in mind, and in body. At 1st level a rune knight gains a bonus to AC equal to her (positive) intelligence modifier, up to her max level in this class. Additionally she may use her intelligence modifier, instead of her dexterity, for determining reflex defense.
*Rune Lore: During her training a Rune Knight becomes familiar with the secrets of words and symbols adding half her level (minimum +1) to all Linguistics checks, Use Magic Device checks made to activate spell-completion or spell-trigger items, Perception checks made to find magical traps and Disable Devices checks made to disarm magical traps. She may use Disable Devices to disarm magical traps and effects of spells and spell-like abilities that work like traps, including glyphs, explosive runes, and symbols.
*Symbology (Ex): A 2nd level a Rune Knight becomes more familiar with words and symbols; she may add her Intelligence bonus (minimum +1) to saving throws against language-dependent effects, explosive runes, glyphs, sepia snake sigil, symbols and similar effects that take form of writing or are triggered by reading.
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It's nice to check a eye-catching post in Suggestions forum just to discover to be part of the posts inspiration :D
First thought: weapon proficiencies are very restricted. I really see no point of not making it "all simple and martial weapons" as is typical for weapon using classes. Why forbid rune knight from using battleaxe or heavy pick if he wants to.
Runes: What does "begin play with three runes" means? Do you mean that he posses physical runestones with those runes? Or has does he knows how to inscribe and empower those runes?
Cunning reflex: Abilities that allow adding another ability score to AC usually work without armor. Here is no such clause and, as written, means that high Int RK with heavy armor proficiency can boost his AC a bit. I am not convinced why this class should use Intelligence for Reflex saving throw - I just don't see it, maybe when the class will be more fleshed, it will make sense.
It's nice to check a eye-catching post in Suggestions forum just to discover to be part of the posts inspiration :D
Many thanks Drejk. Yes, after the thread died down, I left the idea on the back burner, and I just recently decided to bring the class back. Your class was a major inspiration for how I'm going to be re-formatting the class into something more along the lines of a warrior-cult.
As I go through school, and when I'm home, I'll be making updates.
I will return to the runethane one day with lots and lots of redesign - probably the whole major runes system will get a big overhaul.
Any particular reason why you changed name of Word-wise ability to Symbology? You didn't like the name? :(
I'm not seeing much here. What little I do see I do not like.
I know this is a WIP, but I expect a class designer to at least show a draft of the class's primary class feature. A class, especially a 3/4 BAB class with no spells, needs a strong, definitive class feature to center the entire class around. If the rune mechanic serves as the center of the class, then you need to direct your efforts towards developing and balancing that mechanic before proceeding with the rest of the class.
For the features presented, I do not like them. Abiltiies that let you substitute different ability scores for saves or such mess with the fundamental aspects of the game in a way neither cool nor clever. It especially baffles me as the class already has a good Reflex save (when, in my opinion, it doesn't make much sense for them to have one) and gets bonuses to saves against magical traps. I also have mixed feelings about rune lore for the same reasons I had for the runethane. Though it makes sense, that ability gives so many bonuses.
I also agree with Drejk that giving them Intelligence bonuses to AC doesn't make any sense, both mechanically and flavorwise, because the class can use armor. Also, I expect a runic warrior to get their defenses from their magical abilities rather than getting them for free. For example, I made a race centered around runes. Their city guard usually tattoo their skin with a glyph that casts mage armor or shield once per day because quality armor is difficult to come by.
I did like it, I was just trying to flavor it closer to the class, but, now that I look at it, i see were word-wise would better. I meant no offense.
Well, I appreciate the honest input. As it stands, I'll be re-working what I have here, and from the combined input of Drejk and yourself, and some outside help. To the main point you made however, I do need to flesh out Runes and it's importance to the class. I'll be posting up what I feel is closer to what I wanted originally.
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Somethings I'd like to point out for my second interaction;
1. Lose of armor proficiency is going to happen, but, should I keep the Buckler and Light Shield? I probably won't, in favor of offering more defensive abilities.
2. I'll be switching the weapon proficiencies, as suggested. This is how it was originally, but, I thought perhaps it would've been a bad idea.
3. Cunning Reflex; I'll be keeping the Intelligence bonus to AC, but will not allow the replacement of Dexterity for Reflex defense.
4. Saves; Change to good Will and Fortitude?
Thoughts? Suggestions? Other comments?
*EDIT; Suggestions for a level 2 feature? Until time were a second one is made, I'll be keeping Rune-Lore as a feature. Or an alternate mechanical feature?
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I honestly feel like the vision of this class needs more defined. I find it very strange this is a "rune knight" and yet they don't get armor proficiencies, no blanket weapon proficiencies, and they have a 3/4 BAB. I very strongly recommend developing the concept and primary class features before moving onto details and secondary features. With a clear picture for the core of the class, you and your peers can more easily evaluate the class's design and implementation. Right now, it's like trying to tell if the magus is a well designed class when the designer hasn't written spell combat, spellstrike, and arcane pool yet, or even indicated they existed.
Have you taken a look at the Runeblane class from The Book of Experimental Might by Monte cook as well as the Runethane from Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved?
I think I see were your going with this; I can't have the bread and butter with out the meat and potatoes. It's an incomplete meal. I'll shift my focus towards the Runes then, their were several from the old thread as well, and then come back to the rest of the class.
No, but when I get around to it, I'll go take a look.
Every time I see homebrew and rune knight together, this is what I think of... though the forum change did play havoc with the charts.
I will, however, be happy to take a look at your take.
Any particular reason why you changed name of Word-wise ability to Symbology? You didn't like the name? :(
Maybe he's a Boondock Saints fan?
Indeed it did. However, thanks for stopping by the thread. On another note, yes, I am indeed a fan of Boondocks Saints, although that's not were I got it from.
I'll be posting up what I feel is a more accurate representation of what I wanted, and tweaked, within the hour.
HD: d10
BAB: Full
Good saves: Will & Fortitude
Bad save: Reflex
Proficiencies: Rune Knights are proficient with all simple & martial weapons.
Additionally, a Rune Knight does not gain proficiency in armor or shields of any kind.
Skill points per level: 2 + Intelligence modifier.
Skills: Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Planes), Knowledge (Religion), Linguistics (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Use Magic Device (Cha) (Needs to be expanded)
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New Mechanic: [Rune]*
Runes are not subject to arcane spell failure, as they are not spoken and do not require hand gestures to activate.
[Offensive Runes]
Elemental Runes
+2 Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lighting damage, when stacked, the rune instead adds 2d6 damage. The Runes stacked can only be of the same type.
Arcane Runes
+1 Force, Positive or Negative damage, when stacked, the rune instead adds 1d6 damage. The Runes stacked can only be of the same type.
Vertical
When placed on a weapon a Rune Knight may, as a full-round action, make a single attack at her highest BAB, against all targets in a straight line out to 30ft, this increase to 60ft at 10th level. This stacks to 60/120ft respectively. A Rune Knight must be at least 6th level before selecting this rune.
Horizontal
When placed on a weapon a Rune Knight may, as a full-round action, make a single attack at her highest BAB, against all targets in a cone out to 30ft, this increase to 60ft at 10th level. This stacks to 60/120ft respectively.
Meteor Impact
As a Full-round action deal damage to all targets in a 15ft radius. At 12th level this becomes 30ft. Stacks to 30/60ft. A Rune Knight must be at least 8th level before selecting this rune.
[Defensive Runes]
Resistance [Elemental]
Grants resistance 5 fire, cold, acid, or lighting, which improves to 10 at level 11. Stacking these before level 11, increase the resistance to 15, but stacking them after 10 instead grants immunity.
Resistance [Arcane]
Positive, Negative, and Force grant DR 5/magic when unstacked which increases to DR 10/magic at level 8 and DR 15/magic at level 18. Stacked, the DRs instead become 5/Good (for unholy), 5/Evil (for holy), and 5/Adamantine (for eldritch); these increase to 10 at level 8 and 15 at level 18, as normal.
Miscellaneous Runes
Speed runes
When placed on pants or leg armor, increase movement speed by 5 feet. This improves by 5 feet at level 6 and every six levels thereafter. Stacking doubles it. This Rune can also be placed on wings to increase flight speed.
Rune of competence
When placed on a weapon, it grants a +1 insight bonus on attack rolls. This may not be stacked until level 9. At that point, when the Rune knight places the stacked rune on one weapon that the rune knight holds (so just the rune knight) the insight bonus increases by +1 (to +3). At level 13, this stacked bonus increases to +2 (to +3 total) for the rune knight and it can be stacked on others for +1 (totaling to +2). At level 17, the bonus increases by +1 for the rune knight regardless of stacked (for a total of +2 unstacked and +4 stacked)
A Rune Knight begins play with knowledge of 3 runes, she gains an additional known rune at level 3, and another one every two levels afterwards, to a maximum of 12 at level 19. She may have a number of runes drawn equal to 3 + (positive) intelligence modifier, but, only one active. She may have a second rune active at level 2 and an additional active rune every 2 levels thereafter, to a maximum of 11 at level 20.
Cunning reflex: A Rune Knight is trained to be quick, both in mind, and in body. At 1st level a rune knight gains a bonus to AC equal to her (positive) intelligence modifier, up to her max level in this class.
*Rune Lore: During her training a Rune Knight becomes familiar with the secrets of words and symbols adding half her level (minimum +1) to all Linguistics checks, Use Magic Device checks made to activate spell-completion or spell-trigger items, Perception checks made to find magical traps and Disable Devices checks made to disarm magical traps. She may use Disable Devices to disarm magical traps and effects of spells and spell-like abilities that work like traps, including glyphs, explosive runes, and symbols.
*Word-Wise (Ex): A 2nd level a Rune Knight becomes more familiar with words and symbols; she may add her Intelligence bonus (minimum +1) to saving throws against language-dependent effects, explosive runes, glyphs, sepia snake sigil, symbols and similar effects that take form of writing or are triggered by reading.
How do the runes actually work? So far, they all seem very lackluster and not really anything captures the imagination.
I have a couple of thoughts.
Minor things:
-Drop the "(positive)" everywhere. If a rune knight adds int to AC, then for whatever reason if they take alot of int damage, drops below 10) shouldn't they become less able to defend themselves? But go ahead and keep the minimum for rune lore and word wise.
-Don't most knights wear armor? I would consider calling this a "Rune Warrior" or "Runic Warrior" based off what I see so far and lack of any armor.
Major things:
-At second level I can do 2d6 Lightning Damage? :/ I feel like in order to Stack all of the runes you should need to be of a certain level. On stacking can I only stack 2 runes or may I stack 3,4, or 5?
-Standard action to draw a rune. You do not indicate the action required. Maybe at level 8 can draw a rune as a move action, then at 14 swift action, finally 18 free action(maybe?). Something to consider.
-How about a rune to increase AC on top of Cunning Reflex?
-You should declare that runes are infact magical and can be hampered by things such as dispel Magic. Also it might be neat if they can be removed/temporarily disabled via disable device(this is more of a "Runes seem to be a mechanic similar to magical traps").
-So can runes be moved off and on over and over again or are they permanent for the day? Can they only apply to you but at higher levels allow for you to use two runes for an ally to benefit for a single one?
Maybe you should look at this mechanic as another twist of the pool variety such as for gunslingers and deeds. With a Pool you can do certain things, use a rune to add so and so rune to an object, maybe get static bonuses as long as you have 1 rune available. You can even recover a rune as a full round action per item (get two or more back if stacked) then maybe allow this to drop to a standard action when it takes a move action to apply and then a move action when it requires a swift action to apply.
I might have more to say but I think that was enough for now. This reminds me of a mix of Magic of Incarnum form 3.5 and artificer from Eberron 3.5. Could be fun to play.
I have a couple of thoughts.
Minor things:
-Drop the "(positive)" everywhere. If a rune knight adds int to AC, then for whatever reason if they take alot of int damage, drops below 10) shouldn't they become less able to defend themselves? But go ahead and keep the minimum for rune lore and word wise.
The proper term to use in such cases is "bonus", which by definition is positive value, e.g. (from Paladin): "Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws."
But in PF game mechanics, an ability score bonus is always a non-negative number. This means the lowest value it can have is zero.
The proper term to use in such cases is "bonus", which by definition is positive value, e.g. (from Paladin): "Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws."I have a couple of thoughts.
Minor things:
-Drop the "(positive)" everywhere. If a rune knight adds int to AC, then for whatever reason if they take alot of int damage, drops below 10) shouldn't they become less able to defend themselves? But go ahead and keep the minimum for rune lore and word wise.
I secon--er--third this. Sean K. Reynolds did a blog on this, too. Use "bonus" if the ability score only affects it when positive. Use "modifier" if a negative can affect it.
Thanks everyone for that clarification; So I need to change (positive) to bonus
Something I forgot to add to my second posting of this class was the stacking mechanic. This should help clarify what stacking is, and when it becomes available.
Stacking Mechanic: At 7th level the Rune Knight has learned to stack runes. Stacking Runes is counted as three runes for the purposes of drawn runes, but counts only as two for her limit on active runes.
I suppose Rune Knight is more of a formal term in this case, and Rune Warrior would probably be the correct term here.
But in PF game mechanics, an ability score bonus is always a non-negative number. This means the lowest value it can have is zero.
Yes, bonus. But The Eternal King was referring to ability score modifier in initial description. Which gets a bit awkward when the sentence says "xx gets bonus to yy equal to Intelligence modifier (which can be negative)".