Rebuild or Grandfathered? I can find nothing on it...

[Martin Misthawk]

OK, the Sanguine Bloodline is apparently no longer PFS legal as of the 28th.

I see some entries in the legal/not legal list that indicate grandfathering of newly illegal options, but no such specificity on that bloodline.

I also see an entry referring to rebuilds when rules change... but they are not being changed, they remain the same but are banned...

So... what happens here?

Character removed from play forever, lose all access to record sheets, do not pass go, immediately rage quit, yadda yadda yadda...

or

Free rebuild of character...

or

Grandfathered if played before the release of that errata (like our Aasimar and Tiefling friends)?

[Andreas Forster]

Illegal character options like bloodlines are not grandfathered.
Also note that Aasimars and Tieflings are not illegal in PFS, players just can't create any new ones without having a race boon.

You get to partially rebuild a character that used to have the now-illegal bloodline, meaning you can choose a new bloodline, but will have to keep all other choices.

[Dylos]

Note that when several evil archetypes (vivisectionist, gravewalker, undead lord, etc.) were no long allowed those players got full rebuilds. I would be willing to argue that a sorcerer's bloodline defines the character just as much as any of these archetypes would (just look at how few sorcerer archetypes there are compared to other classes) and feel that they should be given the same option (full rebuild).

[Martin Misthawk]

Well, this has a small (actually large) problem associated with it...

Sanguine is a Wildblooded bloodline. And that is an archetype. So, the character would not even be able to switch to the next closest parent bloodline (undead). Instead we would wind up with another wildblooded bloodline, since it is not technically "necessary" to switch archetype.

So we would have a sylvan sorcerer (or some such) with a bite attack, spell focus: necromancy, and greater spell focus: necromancy. And the character would lose access to all the Necromancy spells that came with the bloodline.

I'm not sure that is draconian and destructive enough... can I also kick him in the crotch and hit on his wife while I'm at it to round things off? That would be super.

(Edit: this post was in reply to Andreas, not Dylos)

[GM Lamplighter]

The Guide to Organized Play has something to say on this:

Guide wrote:

"Playtests and Errata

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game is a living game, and whether in the form of a playtest that varies from its final incarnation, conversion from the 3.5 rules set to the Pathfinder RPG, or an errata or FAQ to the Core Rules, sometimes game elements change in the course of a PC’s career. The following guidelines allow players to update or convert existing characters to use the most current rules. When rebuilding your character in any way, you must
describe all changes on your next Chronicle sheet in the Notes section, and your GM must initial that section.

If a feat or trait changes or is removed from the Additional Resources list: You have two options. First, you may either switch the old feat for an updated feat of the same name in another legal source (if available), ignoring any prerequisites of the new feat you do not meet. Alternatively, you may replace the feat entirely with another feat for which you meet all the prerequisites.

If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP, maintaining the same equipment.

If a class or prestige class changes in such a way that you no longer have proficiency with a given weapon or armor type: You may sell back the affected equipment and only the affected equipment at full market value.

Granted, the rules don't specify what happens when a particular version of a class feature (like a bloodline) becomes illegal, but I would say it falls under the second "If...then" category myself. And they call themselves "guidelines", which to my mind means we should extrapolate them to cover similar situations.

NOTE: I am NOT an official voice, but if someone came to me and asked in my Lodge, that's what I'd tell them to do.

[Dylos]

I could see arguments for both the replace it like a feat and saying that a bloodline (or in this case a mutated bloodline) is a class feature that changed (allowing for a free rebuild).

[David Haller]

It seems pretty clear from the guide that you get a rebuild to current XP, including replacing equipment rendered unusable by the rebuild (ie. can be "cashed in" for purchase value).

[Martin Misthawk]

I am in agreement with Lamplighter, Dylos, and Haller...

It seems fairer to the player after working that character up for so long.

The only reason I ask in the first place is because there have been arguements that only the minimum changes absolutely needed can be made... and that assertion seems to be in direct contradiction to the Guide.

For example, when one of the classes lost its summoning ability, there was the arguement that while Augmented Summons and Superior Summons could be changed out, Spell Focus: Conjuration could not be changed because it could (maybe) have a use... even though it was really only purchased as a prereq. for the other feats.

Again, this seems to directly contradict the guidelines, yet people are arguing vehemently about it (as Andreas argued above)...

So I have to ask, where are they getting this? I don't see these draconian restrictions on post-changes rebuilds; is there some basis that I am missing somewhere?

[Disk Elemental]

Because PFS is generally very stingy with giving out rebuilds/do-overs.

[GM Lamplighter]

Playtest stuff is different - there have been situations where something is made PFS-legal, with the understanding that it will change later. Rebuilds are stingier here, because it allows someone to play a (usually-overpowered) playtest version for months, and then switch a build that would have been useless until (say) level 5 and reap the benefits of that. It is an extension of the 1st level barbarians we are seeing now with the replay rules... I have 20 hp at first level, and then just before 2nd level I suddenly morph into a wizard.

[nosig]

GM Lamplighter wrote:

... I have 20 hp at first level, and then just before 2nd level I suddenly morph into a wizard.

This results in a lot of dead 2nd level wizards as people who never learned how to play a wizard charge into combat...

Or at least get upset when they discover they really don't LIKE playing wizards...

Someone who does this is only hurting himself...

[The Morphling]

This needs an official answer, but I would say you get the full rebuild.

[GM Lamplighter]

nosig wrote:

Someone who does this is only hurting himself...

You say that as if it matters to the person doing it! ;)

Yes, they are, but it is an unintended consequence of the "free rebuild" rules. It's not the new folks doing it, but the old hands who want to make sure they don't catch an unlucky crit. They know how to play wizards, and are just breaking the spirit of the rule for the sake of optimization.

I would hate to see that group be able to count on a free rebuild every year, just by choosing to play a playtest PC (which is likely overpowered anyway). We don't need to encourage people to concentrate solely on optimization any more than we already do.

[GM Lamplighter]

The Morphling wrote:

This needs an official answer, but I would say you get the full rebuild.

Hit the "FAQ" button on the first post. (Although John is working on the Warpriest issue, as mentioned in another thread, so I hope the general ACG rebuild rules are being considered...)

[David_Bross]

Martin Misthawk wrote:

Well, this has a small (actually large) problem associated with it...

Sanguine is a Wildblooded bloodline. And that is an archetype. So, the character would not even be able to switch to the next closest parent bloodline (undead). Instead we would wind up with another wildblooded bloodline, since it is not technically "necessary" to switch archetype.

So we would have a sylvan sorcerer (or some such) with a bite attack, spell focus: necromancy, and greater spell focus: necromancy. And the character would lose access to all the Necromancy spells that came with the bloodline.

I'm not sure that is draconian and destructive enough... can I also kick him in the crotch and hit on his wife while I'm at it to round things off? That would be super.

(Edit: this post was in reply to Andreas, not Dylos)

Its actually pretty easy in regarded to the wild blooded thing. The wild blooded archetype replaces certain aspects of your bloodline powers (each class feature it has replaced would cost 5 prestige/days to retrain individually). Fortunately, you actually have none as your wild blooded archetype is no longer legal, so you could revert to an undead (or any other legal bloodline you'd like to choose).

I'm in complete agreement with Andreas about changing your bloodline, and nothing else about the character.

[Tamec]

nosig wrote:

This results in a lot of dead 2nd level wizards as people who never learned how to play a wizard charge into combat...

Were you at my very first DnD game? It was back in the days of second edition, I build my first character the mighty fire elementalist wizard Tamic. In the first combat I ran up to the barbarian and cast my only fire spell, burning hands. My brother, the DM, then had the barbarian attack me. Back in second edition you rolled for everything even starting hp. When I rolled my (1d4) wizard hp I got a 2, the barbarian did 12 damage to me...

My brother felt bad, let me keep my stats, and Tamec was born. After that I used magic missile until I could create an elemental first level blast. To this day I still dislike burning hands.

[nosig]

GM Lamplighter wrote:

nosig wrote:

Someone who does this is only hurting himself...

You say that as if it matters to the person doing it! ;)

Yes, they are, but it is an unintended consequence of the "free rebuild" rules. It's not the new folks doing it, but the old hands who want to make sure they don't catch an unlucky crit. They know how to play wizards, and are just breaking the spirit of the rule for the sake of optimization.

I would hate to see that group be able to count on a free rebuild every year, just by choosing to play a playtest PC (which is likely overpowered anyway). We don't need to encourage people to concentrate solely on optimization any more than we already do.

you say that like it matters to you how someone else plays the game...

[nosig]

Tamec wrote:

nosig wrote:

This results in a lot of dead 2nd level wizards as people who never learned how to play a wizard charge into combat...

Were you at my very first DnD game? It was back in the days of second edition, I build my first character the mighty fire elementalist wizard Tamic. In the first combat I ran up to the barbarian and cast my only fire spell, burning hands. My brother, the DM, then had the barbarian attack me. Back in second edition you rolled for everything even starting hp. When I rolled my (1d4) wizard hp I got a 2, the barbarian did 12 damage to me...

My brother felt bad, let me keep my stats, and Tamec was born. After that I used magic missile until I could create an elemental first level blast. To this day I still dislike burning hands.

did you have fun?

I recall one of my first (3rd ed.) games running a wizard...

3rd encounter in the game, the guy playing the Fighter was asking why we had brought my PC, then we learned the relationship between a Sleep spell and an Ogre...

[Andrew Christian]

I think it incredibly pedantic and hurtful to try and interpret the rules to mean that you can't rebuild your character if something is made illegal on you.

[Avatar-1]

It's crystal clear from the PFS guide, taken from the same quote GM Lamplighter used above:

Quote:

If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP, maintaining the same equipment.

[Martin Misthawk]

David_Bross wrote:

Its actually pretty easy in regarded to the wild blooded thing. The wild blooded archetype replaces certain aspects of your bloodline powers (each class feature it has replaced would cost 5 prestige/days to retrain individually). Fortunately, you actually have none as your wild blooded archetype is no longer legal, so you could revert to an undead (or any other legal bloodline you'd like to choose).

I'm in complete agreement with Andreas about changing your bloodline, and nothing else about the character.

Actually, no, not exactly... let me explain.

Wildblooded is an archetype. This archetype may only take the mutated bloodlines. Sanguine is just one of those mutated bloodlines.

The archetype has not been banned, only one mutated bloodline... so you would be stuck with the archetype (theoretically).

It would not be necessary to change anything but the mutated bloodline... which would NOT allow for regression to the Undead parent bloodline since THAT is a bloodline available to the OTHER archetypes and standard Sorcerers, not the Wildblooded archetype.

So, I hope you see what my concern is here.

Being forced into a different bloodline without a rebuild also creates other problems. Your bloodline specific spells will change. Possibly to one you already spent a "known spell" slot on. Then what happens?

This just raises too many weird situations... I probably have not even thought of them all yet.

Yet another reason why I am thinking telling him to rebuild before the game is the best option.

[Martin Misthawk]

Avatar-1 wrote:

It's crystal clear from the PFS guide, taken from the same quote GM Lamplighter used above:

Quote:

If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP, maintaining the same equipment.

I would tend to agree, but the very first response I got insisted exactly the opposite (from a Venture Lieutenant no less)... and he is not alone.

So I guess the real question is, "Absent a ruling, if I tell him to rebuild and I am wrong, what are the consequences to him and his character... and to me for telling him to do it?"

[David_Bross]

Martin Misthawk wrote:

Stuff about rebuild

Let me try this another way. If you want to retrain any archetype, you spend prestige equal to 5 times the number of class features that you are replacing.

In this case, you've chosen wild blooded, which is the undead sorcerer bloodline, modifying potentially (and actually at first level) both your bloodline arcana, and your 1st level bloodline power.

To retrain this archetype, you'd have to spend 10 prestige.

However, your bloodline was made illegal, giving you essentially no bloodline. That was why I was saying you could retrain with no cost out of wild blooded, and essentially have the same character (almost) if simply choosing the undead bloodline. (as you're replacing no class features with wildblooded at that point, it'd cost 0 prestige to retrain it off of your PC)

Or, since your bloodline was made illegal, you could choose a completely different bloodline.

I think the guide supports this 100%.

Now as for the arguments for a full rebuild, I don't see them. The guide doesn't explicitly state what happens when a spell, bloodline, or domain is made illegal in PFS. Its fairly obvious that you can choose a new spell, bloodline, or domain in its place, but absent additional rulings it is hard to see where else this goes.

A bloodline is a major part of who a sorcerer is, but at the end of the day, a sorcerer is a sorcerer, and choosing undead rather than sanguine has fairly minor implications for that character.

I hope this, along with many other questions regarding rebuilds, are answered relatively quickly. (Namely Warpriests, but also Shamans, Bards who had Pageant of the Peacock effecting Skill allocation). I've given my thoughts on rebuilds under all of these circumstances, but until you hear from on high, it is safest to simply play your character under the most conservative of rulings or simply park him until you have a response and enjoy a different PC.

[Avatar-1]

Martin Misthawk wrote:

I would tend to agree, but the very first response I got insisted exactly the opposite (from a Venture Lieutenant no less)... and he is not alone.

He's wrong though, but he could easily be forgiven for it - Mike Brock made the same mistake back when the synthesist summoner got banned, and he overturned the mistaken ruling to default to what the guide said.