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There is NO ONE to blame but those that chose to steal and destroy. Some few might have tried to BS that it was "justice" but most just saw a chance and took it to have fun and get stuff. No amount of "evil riot police" made them do anything. The criminal minded took advantage. nothing more nothing lessIt's also quite likely that a better police response to the initial protests, one that didn't feature armored vehicles, faceless riot police, rubber bullets and snipers, might well have avoided the looting entirely.
It's when the protest was broken by military style force, that it turned violent.
That's not to condone the burning and looting, but to suggest that the "Miami Model" increases, not decreases the chance of it.
I'm not saying it was justice or that those who did so should be excused or whatever else you think I'm saying.
I'm saying that there are tactics that work to defuse this kind of situation and there are tactics that make it worse. Heavy militarized police presence breaking up the protests make it worse. If you don't want the burning and looting, don't do that.
I do not think that really mattered. People saw that this was an excuse to go nuts and they did. I do not think ANY tactics would have stopped the looting other than more armed store owners standing against it
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I've seen a number of quotes from Iraq war veterans saying the cops looked better equipped than they were.Actually, calling it military gear isn't fair.
The geneva convention won't let you use tear gas on enemy troops. Your own citizens is fine though.
Plus at least one quote from a veteran of the peacekeeping mission in Bosnia.
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Also, what should you do when riots start to get violent? Let them?
If it is the police being violent, it becomes a very difficult situation to deal with. Police seem to know this, and use violence very effectively. I am amazed at how often someone is willing to step forward and justify the violence of the State.
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Unsurprisingly, Andrew's solution "kill more black people".To be fair to Andrew, it's more of "kill more people." Race doesn't really factor into it.
More accurately " kill more criminals that have it coming" and race is not a factor, only actions. Not sure why some cannot separate black and criminal.
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I'm sure the gathering of a couple hundred individuals in one place without government sanction is scary to the cops and authority figures.
Its supposed to be.
Thats the entire point of that part of the first amendment. It is the right of the people to say "there are a lot of us ticked off enough about something to organize and stand here, and if you think that's not that far from a lynch mob... its not. Now change what you're doing"
Now, if that runs the risk of getting people inconvenienced, hurt, or even killed then so what. We have to tolerate the KKK because of rest of the first amendment, Gods know how many people are killed every year because of the second amendment.
But we're going to stop the right to assemble because of a freaking noise ordinance and assault on a slushy machine? Oh hell no.
That is the claim, seen it on many sites. Not hard at all, bricks in windows, baseball bats, guns, fire. They were more damaged seriously than made into tiny shrapnel but still the fact the so many were attacked is a huge issuetwo dozen patrol vehicles destroyed? I think someone's exaggerating here. These people would have to have LAWS to do that kind of damage. I'd buy half a dozen at best. This is a small town, not nyc.destruction of police cruisers? When and where was this? I'm going to need proof on that one. Rioting and fires i buy.Or the looters, the arson, the destruction of police cruisers, rocks thrown at police, the shots fired.[
By and large they WERE peaceful protests, unless you count people violently fleeing tear gas and rubber bullets.
http://koin.com/2014/08/14/missouri-troopers-to-take-over-ferguson-security /
"County Police Chief Jon Belmar said his officers have responded with “an incredible amount of restraint” as they’ve had rocks and bottles thrown at them, been shot at and had two dozen patrol vehicles destroyed."
we're going to have to disagree here. I think he is greatly exaggerating.
Please be fairly civil with each other in this thread. I don't want it locked before I get home from work.
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The situation in Ferguson is quite complex and cannot be dismissed by calling the locals 'animals' nor by accusing every individual policeman of malice or wrongdoing. It's best to start from positions of common ground.
Police are entrusted with the use of lethal force to keep the peace. They should and must be judicious in its use and held accountable. Their mandate is to protect and serve the communities that pay them - everyone in the community.
Looting and destruction is wrong and criminal and those who did it should be arrested and prosecuted.
Peaceful assembly and petition to redress grievances is lawful and proper, as is the exercise of a free press.
The Freedom of Speech, and of the Press, and the right of the People peaceably to assemble, and consult for their common good, and to apply to the Government for a redress of grievances, shall not be infringed.
Police should be responsive to their constituency and disclose information as appropriate, particularly in cases of lethal force.
In addition to the above, realize that a significant portion of the population is sociopathic, with no empathy towards their fellows.
So, in any large group (like a police force or crowd of generally peacable protestors), you'll get a portion who have no regard for their fellows - at all. They will happily do whatever they can get away with to benefit themselves, as long as they feel they can get away with it.
If they are in a position of power, they will misuse it if they can. If they are in a confused crowd at night, they will grab what they get for themselves. This does NOT mean that the majority of police are bad, evil, racist, or psychopathic. Nor does it mean that the majority of the protestors are looking to destroy their own community. It means there are bad people who need to be dealt with, lawfully. Painting police and protestors with the broad brush of sociopathy is not at all helpful.
The police need to identify and arrest bad people - including other bad police officers. People need to know they are being protected and that they need not live in fear of their protectors.
The situation in Ferguson went wrong in so many ways that it's difficult to list them all. Many journalists have done a fine job of reporting and analyzing what they saw, and that's all available on the internet for those who care about facts and are interested in learning what really happened.
What's hard for me to admit and also hard to deny is the frightening treatment of ordinary people by police. If I had not seen some of the dashboard and body cam footage of horrible police behavior, I would have found the victims' stories unbelievable. But I've seen compliant people being battered while the arresting officer yells "Stop resisting! Stop reaching for my weapon!" for the benefit of the recording. I've seen them shot. I've seen them beaten. I've seen mentally ill people dragged by their feet while their head bounced down a staircase while onlookers yelled in horror that they had called the police to help this person, not kill them. Children are being tazed and handcuffed.
This is utterly horrifying. We'd have little to no knowledge of this without dashboard cams, body cams, and smartphones. The recording needs to be expanded so the truth can come out. Police who abuse the populace must be discovered, charged, and removed from authority altogether. They are undermining the public trust and directly contributing to volatile situations. Instead, 1033 gives them weapons of war to escalate their abuse. The situation needs to be addressed. Please determine the attitudes of your elected representatives and let your voices be heard at the ballot box. This must stop, or Ferguson's unrest will be everywhere.
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The situation in Ferguson is quite complex and cannot be dismissed by calling the locals 'animals' nor by accusing every individual policeman of malice or wrongdoing. It's best to start from positions of common ground.
Police are entrusted with the use of lethal force to keep the peace. They should and must be judicious in its use and held accountable. Their mandate is to protect and serve the communities that pay them - everyone in the community.
Looting and destruction is wrong and criminal and those who did it should be arrested and prosecuted.
Peaceful assembly and petition to redress grievances is lawful and proper, as is the exercise of a free press.
** spoiler omitted **Police should be responsive to their constituency and disclose information as appropriate, particularly in cases of lethal force.
In addition to the above, realize that a significant portion of the population is sociopathic, with no empathy towards their fellows.
So, in any large group (like a police force or crowd of generally peacable protestors), you'll get a portion who have no regard for their fellows - at all. They will happily do whatever they can get away with to benefit themselves, as long as they feel they can get away with it.
If they are in a position of power, they will misuse it if they can. If they are in a confused crowd at night, they will grab what they get for themselves. This does NOT mean that the majority of police are bad, evil, racist, or psychopathic. Nor does it mean that the majority of the protestors are looking to destroy their own community. It means there are bad people who need to be dealt with, lawfully. Painting police...
I mostly agree. However some will always resent the law for effecting their groups and event the most even handed police would have to face a backlash of violence against them. They work in a world that involves split second decisions that can get them killed daily. They live with something we cannot understand unless we have been there.
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Policing is a difficult job. Unfortunately, arming police with Pentagon-surplus materiel has not made it easier for day-to-day activities. Most of their work does not involve responding to heavily-armed, desperado bank robbers as happened in LA. Most involves routine checks and petty crimes. Tear gas, body armor, rubber bullets - these all serve to separate the police from the people they serve.
What happened to the community policing effort, where patrolmen got out of their cars and walked a beat to get to know their people? I believe that was proved to be effective, but we seem to prefer to give communities three-quarter of a MILLION dollar war vehicles rather than pay the salary of a few more officers to support community policing.
You'll notice that unrest in Ferguson de-escalated last night when Captain Johnson of the highway patrol took charge. He walked around in shirtsleeves, talking to people and encouraging the community cleanup efforts (which have arisen spontaneously from locals wanting to keep businesses in their community). He did NOT have his men point live weapons at crowds. There's general, broad agreement that police in Ferguson mishandled the reactions to the Brown shooting and escalated the situation themselves.
Maybe now that details have been released in this morning's press conference (why did it take DAYS to get the sequence of 911 calls when the police handling Robin Williams' death made that information public the same day?)there may be some backlash, but much of the unrest was caused by lack of information. Leave an information gap and speculation will fill in the details, generally destructively.
And I bow out. The information is out on the internet for those interested. People who won't read and learn are certainly entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't make them right. If they want to learn about Ferguson, let them go there and meet the people. I have. Have you?