|
There is a thread posted about GM’s handling players that detect evil. You could imply this to detecting everything. There is the other side of the table or looking glass. It got me thinking about my experience being a player and using all kinds of detect spells.
When playing, I have told plenty of GM's that the detect spells go through three foot of wood, a foot of stone, an inch of metal, and a sheet of lead. I also say unless it is an evil dragon or outsider, undead, or another creature from those previously mentioned with at least five HD, it does not detect as evil.
In low level mods, I do not bother with detect evil. This is in mods with tiers where the detect spells such as detect evil or magic are useful, and in mods with creature's having more than five HD.
Why wouldn't these spells go through a wooden door that is DC 13 - 18 to break down. Once the door is broken down, in asking if there is anything in the door, I have had a 99% probability of hearing a resounding "no".
It seems nearly all GM's do not want to reveal what could be detected on the other side, I surmise because it is considered, "mod breaking". These effects are in the game why not use them?
The GM's I am talking about range from over 30 years to noobs in experience running mods.
Why would you as a GM not allow these detect spells to function in an environment that they would normally work? I wish to know if I am being ignorant for giving the information these spells reveal.
Edit: I hope it is more to the point.
The GMs that aren't allowing detect spells to work are simply being jerks. It's as much the players game as it is theirs. If they wanted to ban those spells in the beginning the GM needs to say so and the players can tell him where to stick that, cause without players there is no game.
Granted I've known and been friends with my group for a long time. This isn't something we normally have to deal with. But they know me well enough that if I bring up something as a complaint, I've reached the end of my tolerance. It should be fun for everyone or what's the point?
I remember one time where it was pick on thunderman day or something. Everything this session was going against me, and the past several sessions anything I wanted to do was over ruled by the rest of the party. Well the GM trapped us with a hostage situation, I was torn between what my character would do, and what my party wanted me to do. After the fiasco that ensued OOC, I started packing my things, and decided that the important NPC wasn't that important, the squishy party member could take the hit and the need to kill the hostage takers was more pressing. Another OOC fiasco over this choice, this one I expected but I doubt any one other than the GM knew why I made that choice.
Had the strap of my bag in hand and was about to stand up to walk out when all of a sudden the GM found there were more options, and things were resolved more favorably.
The point is if your not having fun there's something wrong and it needs fixing. Talk to your GM about it and if needed call him on his BS. In mine the problem was other party members not wanting to be as cooperative as they wanted me to be. I can take some of the blame because I should have said something prior to this snafu. It was a comedy of errors, don't let your game become a comedy of errors.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
Depends if it is a paladin, or the spell. If it is the spell, it goes through just fine. But if I recall the paladin has to specify a target, but they get full results after just 1 standard action, not after concentrating for 3 rounds. And you can't specify a target on the other side of a door you can't see through
|
Depends if it is a paladin, or the spell. If it is the spell, it goes through just fine. But if I recall the paladin has to specify a target, but they get full results after just 1 standard action, not after concentrating for 3 rounds. And you can't specify a target on the other side of a door you can't see through
Here is what the paladin ability says:
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
If used as a standard action (because it is a SLA), the paladin can detect evil exactly like the spell, sweeping areas, including past closed doors, to find evil auras and concentrating to determine the intensity and source of those auras.
Alternatively, the paladin can—as a move action—concentrate on a single item or individual and determine the strength of its evil aura as if she had concentrated for 3 rounds.
|
Depends if it is a paladin, or the spell. If it is the spell, it goes through just fine. But if I recall the paladin has to specify a target, but they get full results after just 1 standard action, not after concentrating for 3 rounds. And you can't specify a target on the other side of a door you can't see throughHere is what the paladin ability says:
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.If used as a standard action (because it is a SLA), the paladin can detect evil exactly like the spell, sweeping areas, including past closed doors, to find evil auras and concentrating to determine the intensity and source of those auras.
Alternatively, the paladin can—as a move action—concentrate on a single item or individual and determine the strength of its evil aura as if she had concentrated for 3 rounds.
There is certainly table variation as to whether a paladin can do BOTH a normal detect evil AND his special detect evil. The last time I checked (quite awhile back) it seemed to be a legitimate case where the rules wrer unclear.
Similarly, there is some rules support for GMs that don't allow detect evil to detect unseen things.
|
|
There is certainly table variation as to whether a paladin can do BOTH a normal detect evil AND his special detect evil. The last time I checked (quite awhile back) it seemed to be a legitimate case where the rules wrer unclear.Depends if it is a paladin, or the spell. If it is the spell, it goes through just fine. But if I recall the paladin has to specify a target, but they get full results after just 1 standard action, not after concentrating for 3 rounds. And you can't specify a target on the other side of a door you can't see throughHere is what the paladin ability says:
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.If used as a standard action (because it is a SLA), the paladin can detect evil exactly like the spell, sweeping areas, including past closed doors, to find evil auras and concentrating to determine the intensity and source of those auras.
Alternatively, the paladin can—as a move action—concentrate on a single item or individual and determine the strength of its evil aura as if she had concentrated for 3 rounds.
Are you saying that paladins cannot use detect evil exactly like the spell? Or are you saying that they can't do both at the same time?
My position is that they can use detect evil as the spell, OR they can use it in "paladin mode" as a move action.
If it is only as the spell, then everything after the first sentence is misleading. If it is only in "paladin mode" then the first sentence is misleading.
Similarly, there is some rules support for GMs that don't allow detect evil to detect unseen things.
Can you provide a source?
3rd Round: The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.
...
The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
|
i know their are times i wanna say u cant use detect spells cause most use out of player knowledge in the fact that they are playing a scenario with 3-5 encounters/challenges and auto attack something just cause its evil. so i can understand some frustration with detect spells but as a society gm you do not have an option but to play stuff by the book as its written.
|
|
Remember, though, that whether there is evil/magic/what-have-you to detect will also depend on where ion the room/area behind the door it is.
If it is standing right behind the door, no problem, you get the feeling something evil this way comes. But, if, instead, it is hiding on the other side of the wall, not behind the door, you get the blocking effect, yes? Unless the dungeon walls are incredibly thin...
|
|
Are you saying that paladins cannot use detect evil exactly like the spell? Or are you saying that they can't do both at the same time?
I'm saying that some GMs (not me) rule that the paladins ability does NOT allow them to do an area of effect detect.
Similarly, there is some rules support for GMs that don't
Sorry, no source. I'm going by memory of a discussion.
The problem is that, liberally interpreted, it is far too powerful for a cantrip. So some people tend to hose it one way or the other
|
|
Actually, with the doors closed, it would be the near corners, not the far corners, that would be potentially blocked.
Once they enter the room, of course, that would change.
So, how noisy is the party, and do they mind giving whatever is in each room time to buff up? Also remember that concentration means Standard on the spell each round, so only a move action for movement. And Paladins, typically, wear heavier armor, and don't get the Fighter armor training, so...
And, again, if the mooks in the room are a bunch of low CR mobs, rather than a few higher CR types, they won't detect. I swear, I think I have run at least one 7-11 where there are a bunch of low CR enemies in an encounter, which means that they wouldn't detect as evil. Then again, they also wouldn't be very effective...
|
|
ThunderMan, I have been in situations where the GM play calling or the other players is in question. The only thing I can tell you, even though it is sad, is don't play with them again. At one game store, there were two players playing iconic wizards and they trying to fireball the party. Their excuse was that the enemy creature's were on the fringes and the players were in the middle.
I sensed collusion in what they were doing and complained they were bullying everybody else. My argument was they had to ask us if they can fireball the party and I said they did not have my permission to hit me. They waited till late in the fight and everything had low hit points, friend or foe alike. They never appeared before or since that PFS game day.
I understand that some of you are saying that pinpointing a location is not possible through a barrier. You all are talking that evil can be detected or not detected along with it's aura or lack of it.
The experience I am posting is that none of the detect spells are allowed to detect anything. I appreciate what you all are saying is the spells do function to a limited degree in that if they detect through a barrier, the aura, its power and direction is possible.
Over the years that I have been using this tactic certain situations I think right away start using detect spells. Sometimes it will be a house made out of wood in a lower affluent part of town that is 20' x 30' by 10' high and nothing is detected when measured to get the whole wooden structure. Afterwards, there was plenty therein that should have been detected.
I figure this is a GM that doesn't trust me or doesn't think I am able to be believable and it is new to him or her. Yet, in South Florida in most game stores where I play the experienced GM's that know me come to me to clarify rules or for advice.
I don't know the classes specifically such as the monk and I am reading up on feats for the Brawler class. I have been studying the mechanics for unarmed strike and I think I have rubbed some individuals the wrong way in my persistence on these boards.
I do study the mechanics of the game, the structure outside of the classes. There are some rules for unarmed strikes that are not in any of the books. A whole lot of posters insisted the game designers have posted what the rules were and that some of the ink in the books is wasted. The game designers have changed the way weapons are used for improved unarmed strike so they are useless.
My beef is not that the people should know the rules to a 'T'. In my analysis the rules are too complex. Flat footed is useless, it should go the way of THAC 0. It is an extra mechanic that probably came from the idea of how the real world should work. When I get into a heated discussion like this I say that physics and game rules do not mix.
Most game systems use examples of play like the old TSR rules used to. That helps a lot to give an example of game play of how the rules work. It is late and I am tired and I can rant on forever, take care ya’ll, Ciao.
|
|
I love to remind the "it's evil, attack it!" class of paladins that Zarta Dralneen detects as evil ("so, she's evil... what do you do?"), but strangely, they suddenly don't think "being evil" is grounds for automatic attack anymore.
I think of it as casting "detect metagaming" - I have yet to meet a paladin player in a lead suit!
|
|
I love to remind the "it's evil, attack it!" class of paladins that Zarta Dralneen detects as evil ("so, she's evil... what do you do?"), but strangely, they suddenly don't think "being evil" is grounds for automatic attack anymore.
I think of it as casting "detect metagaming" - I have yet to meet a paladin player in a lead suit!
You know how many time's someone has asked that I cast D-Evil and I did not cast it. Sometimes, ignorance is a bliss. Sometimes, not knowing does not hurt you. In fact, the less I know in those situations the better off I am. Ignorance can be a bliss.
Believe it or not, that is from a DnD edition a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.
|
|
I use detect spells (espically magic) as radar. I have found bad guys hidden in stuff, poised on the other side of a door, and many more options. I am the guy that walk 5 feet from the door and casts detect magic facing the door so I will pick up anything straight behind the door.
Almost everyone of my character has detect magic.