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Okay, so the reason for my question is I am thinking about making a Witch with the Fate patron and taking Harrower Prestige class, but I don't want to lose out on the higher level patron spells. SO when do they actually get added to the list? Is it only when they are added to spells known, or does a level 1 Fate witch have Wish on her spell list, even if she's not high enough level to cast it?
They are added to the spell list at the time they become known from the patron. So you must have the witch level to get them in this fashion.
You have to get to that level as witch to get access to the spell. At level 1 that spell is not known to you.
Proof from the book:
Patron Spells
At 1st level, when a witch gains her familiar, she must also select a patron. This patron is a vague and mysterious force, granting the witch power for reasons that she might not entirely understand. While these forces need not be named, they typically hold influence over one of the following forces. At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch's patron adds new spells to a witch's list of spells known. Spells marked with an asterisk (*) appear in Chapter 5 of this book. The spells gained depend upon the patron chosen. Each patron is listed by its theme. Its actual name is up to the GM and the witch to decide.
This shows that the spells are added over time, not all at level one.
It also goes on to say they are automatically added to the list of spells stored by the familiar.
It is no different than a sorcerer's bloodline not letting them know a spell or adding it to the class spell list until they reach a certain level.
Okay, thanks that's what I was afraid of... so it's making the Harrower (or any prestige class really) look less appealing because the Fate patron is just too awesome for my overall concept to give up.
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Okay, so the reason for my question is I am thinking about making a Witch with the Fate patron and taking Harrower Prestige class, but I don't want to lose out on the higher level patron spells. SO when do they actually get added to the list? Is it only when they are added to spells known, or does a level 1 Fate witch have Wish on her spell list, even if she's not high enough level to cast it?
Prestige classes don't add Bloodline or Patron spells to your list.
So if you don't take Witch levels you don't get Patron spells.
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I have a problem with this because i remember years ago, this specific issue was addressed by a designer in a FAQ/Errata, and it said the exact opposite as the witch was a special exception to the rule, because the familiar stores all her spells/teaches her magic, so going up in a prc that grants increases to your spellcasting class has to improve the familiar as well because of the reasons aforementioned. Its not the same thing as a Wizard Spellbook because a Wizard doesn't get bonus spells from a outside source like a witch, when he gains a spell caster increase he just gains however many spells he is normally allowed to add to his spellbook for going up a level. The Wizard's Spell Book=/=Witches Familiar.. One's a book that only harbors the wizards collective knowledge up until a present point, he still knows all his spells regardless or not of him having access to his spellbook he just can't prepare his spells after losing the book but he still knows all the spells he's ever learned, he just needs a new book to scribe them all into again, as well as any spells he may have added to the previous book overtime. A witch is the exact opposite, she doesnt have a book to keep her formulas and such in, her familiar a totally different medium, helps her focus and prepare the spells she wants to know that day in her mind by teaching her new spells or reminding her of previously used spells, so if the witches familiar isn't improving with caster level via prestige class there is no way the witch should be gaining access to higher level base witch spells, since again its the familiar that teaches her that, she can't teach the familiar so that it can later teach her, the student does not become the master.
Someone please tell me im not the only one who remembers this faq/errata. I get that people might not like that witches back then kept their bonus patron spells because of how it was tied to the familiar and that the familiar had to go up with prc because otherwise it'd make no sense in how they got new spells, but there is no such thing as total class balance, witches can't just add new spells to their familiar like a wizard can to their spellbook even though they are a prepared spellcaster like a wizard, them getting potentially 9 bonus spells even if they prestige class out of witch is nothing compared to the wizards ability to add potentially any number of spells to his spellbook(s).
Yeah, pretty sure there was no change. Prestige classes make witches cry.
forget about what i said, im certain i saw that faq before, but if it doesn't exist now then i wont argue over it.. i dont like the decision cause to me contextually it doesn't make sense, but im an old man, my views dont matter anymore.
forget about what i said, im certain i saw that faq before, but if it doesn't exist now then i wont argue over it.. i dont like the decision cause to me contextually it doesn't make sense, but im an old man, my views dont matter anymore.I read this in eeyore's voice and it's much funnier.
To be fair, everything is funnier in Eeyore's voice.
/...not that anybody asked meee....