Goblin Squad Member
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It is my understanding that sprinting causes fatigue, which effectively limits your maximum percentage of available stamina. For example, if your fatigue reaches 80%, that means that you will only rapidly regenerate stamina (after using it) up to 20% of your capacity. As your fatigue dissipates, your max stamina (and if not using your stamina also), and your stamina also increases slowly with it.
This seems to work extremely well, except that it's not currently possible to see how much fatigue you have - and therefore you can't see how much stamina you can possibly have during combat, etc.
I propose a fatigue indicator of some sort, and I think it can be implemented on the same HUD that we are using for stamina/power/HP, but backwards. Here's what the existing HUD looks like (we're all familiar with it by now). Note that the top bar is present because I am targeting myself.
Normal HUD
And, if we were to show the fatigue on this HUD, I propose that it would enter in the left side of the black/void area of the stamina bar, and push against the blue when your stamina has reached it's current capacity. If you have used some of your available stamina, that area should remain black/void.
Modified HUD
(Of course, the teal color is terrible, but I wanted to make it obvious what I'm talking about.)
Devs, what do you think about this sort of thing? Should players be able to see their own fatigue level? Is it possible to add this value to the HUD anywhere - even as maybe a little tiny arrow, or a line on the stamina bar?
Feedback appreciated. Thanks!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will add my vote for this as well. I actually mentioned it in one of my livestreams this past weekend.
Yeah, I was mentioning it on my livestream last night, because I was exploring the furthest reaches of the world.
Should I add this to IdeaScale? Unsure of how appropriate it would be for a crowdforging topic, as it's really not a game mechanic - just a UI enhancement.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Go ahead and add it to IdeaScale. That will probably make it more likely for it to become a priority to put it in the UI. (I wanted it to be in the UI since the beginning. ;) )
When you ask for it, also ask for Exhausted to be visible in a different color. Exhausted applies its own Stamina total reduction that decays at a different rate from Fatigued, so needs to be visually distinct.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, the idea on IdeaScale has been posted, but it has also been closed by RyanD - albeit closed in the best way possible!
Absolutely planned to be done. Closing the thread just because there's no question this will happen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, the idea on IdeaScale has been posted, but it has also been closed by RyanD - albeit closed in the best way possible!
Absolutely planned to be done. Closing the thread just because there's no question this will happen.
My concern with that tactic is that it displays an attitude of they don't care about crowd-forging on that one. Regardless of whether most people want it or not. I realize most are likely to want it, and I was going to vote for it, but closing anything because it's already planned sends a message that "we don't care what priority the players set on that one."
Such reason for closing should be used judiciously, if at all.
On the other hand, there's no harm in seeing what people say. What if a thousand people said no? That'd be worth knowing.
Of course, a thousand people weren't gonna say no, so I have trouble being unhappy with this.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Just didn't want to clog up the list with a suggestion that didn't need votes. I've closed a dozen or so for the same reason. There are some things we are going to implement just from common sense and that was one of them. (and now 10 years from now people are going to be asking "when is the fatigue indicator going to be in the UI." :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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There have been other instances where they basically said "This is how it will be no matter how many people complain."
Noteably the fact that there will be a single Open World PvP server and that they will not allow this game to be a murder simulator. The developers have made it very clear that is what they want to develop and that is how it will be.
The idea of a game where the developers pull their entire vision from, and won't make any decisions without the majority vote of the mobs sounds terrible quite frankly. If that's what PFO will be you might as well reconcile yourselves to it either staying small forever or shutting down in a few years. People don't know what they want. Just look at our past couple presidents and you'll know that.
I want a game where dedicated people with knowledge, experience, and passion are building a game they dream of building while pulling the best ideas from the crowd and crowdforging decisions they aren't sure about.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On a related note how does fatigue work? Does it degenerate at a steady rate or only give penalties after a certain point? Can you get much done without generating fatigue?
I hope one can keep their fatigue low for a considerable amount of time unless they are really working their character hard.
1. Otherwise it will be tedious to constantly be topping off your fatigue.
2. You are not constantly getting more tired from the moment you wake up. It takes a lot of time without rest or lots of hard work before you really feel fatigued.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I disagree. They have a design. We're not building this game as a direct democracy. If something is definitely in or definitely out there's not much point arguing; crowd forging is about filling in color at the edges of the design, not drawing the map from scratch.
There's nothing wrong with saying "this is not going to happen in the foreseeable future, so we're closing it." or "This is too much like something else so we're closing it." or "there are too many options and this is on the schedule, so we're closing it."
There is a concern something is done that can be construed as meaning "This little thing isn't really a big deal and is already on our list and we don't care what you think."
That's not what they meant here, but it can easily be read in their actions. Letting people vote on how important something is that they are planning to do anyway does nothing bad. If it turns out a lot of people don't care, it even gives them ammo if they need to put something aside for a month to focus on something they need to do right now.
(edit: I had that compose window open for over an hour because of a teleconference that interrupted, but I think the point remains valid. had Ryan siad "There's too much going on and this is happening" in the original "close" message, you wouldn't have heard a peep from me.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Fatigue currently only comes from sprinting. I believe it's added on at five points per second while doing so, but I may be remembering incorrectly. It's likewise being removed at your Recovery (min 10) per round. So at base Recovery, I think that means you can sprint for a minute before you're completely out of Stamina. Does that match peoples' experience? (I can check the actual documentation in the morning.)
Exhausted is applied by certain effects. It should result in max Stamina being reduced by its total, and it likewise falls off at Recovery per round. I have a feature request in to cap it at 100 (like all stacking debuffs) and to also proportionately reduce Stamina regen (e.g., if you're down to the max reduction of half Stamina, you also recover Stamina half as quickly) since otherwise a reduced top bar only affects the beginning of the fight; by the time you'd taken much Exhausted, you'd already be working the bottom of your bar. Like other Stacking debuffs, it should recover more quickly when out of combat.
Fatigue from Sprinting is likely going away (based on feedback), to be replaced by regular Stamina loss (at somewhat greater than the 10 seconds per round you recover it). It was never very popular, and going from 60 Stamina to 200 Stamina maximum, it made it feel like it was taking ever longer to heal up (though you CAN sprint for way longer than you could at 60). That's fairly low on the current combat feature list, though, so it may be a while before the change is made. We may find another use for Fatigue later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What if fatigue worked like this.
You gain fatigue from all actions which cause you to exert yourself. Sprinting, fighting, etc.
You must have over a certain fatigue score before you gain any negative effects.
You can reduce your fatigue score by sleeping, eating, drinking, or certain social activities like watching someone use the perform skill. The activity and the quality of activity determine how close to 0 you can get your fatigue. 0 fatigue would be what you have after a tier 3 meal, while watching a tier 3 performance, and then sleeping in a tier 3 bed. While you might be able to get by with tier 1 camp rations and a tier 1 tent/bedroll while your out in the wild.
The timing on fatigue should be such that if someone hits an inn for a quick meal and bed rest about as often as you would need to hit the bank while farming monsters or gathering resources you'll be fine, and rarely if ever suffer any penalties.
However if you're traveling long distances through areas without friendly inns you may want to bring a tent/bedroll/trail rations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The idea of a game where the developers pull their entire vision from, and won't make any decisions without the majority vote of the mobs sounds terrible quite frankly. If that's what PFO will be you might as well reconcile yourselves to it either staying small forever or shutting down in a few years. People don't know what they want. Just look at our past couple presidents and you'll know that.
You are a negative Nelly. Be positive. The game is coming along fine. You just described Crowdforging and then said it doesn't work. Seems like it is working pretty well to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That certainly is not what has happened so far. Remember when we all voted we wanted a fantasy sandbox set in the Pathfinder universe with PvP/Player interaction being the primary content? Neither do I. That's the vision GW laid out for us.
So far we've voted on two features, and I remember one of those polls being closed when it became apparent a great many people were voting without bothering to read enough to understand what they were voting on.
For the most part we've been giving our thoughts, ideas, and input on the project GW is building, GW gives them a lot of consideration, and then does what they feel will make the players most happy / create the best game.
That is an entirely different process than giving us direct control over the entire creative process via mob rule. That's why it's been working. The developers have final say over what goes into the game. If they didn't, this would be a horrible game, because the masses do not have the knowledge, experience, and time devoted to the subject matter that the devs do. They aren't qualified to have the final say on most decisions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Taking what the "Crowd" wants to have in game through discussion is one, while overtly caving in every time someone whines about a mechanic or feature not being in (or out) is quite another. I don't think Crowdforging means GW will accept every upvoted thing on the ideascale website just because it has a cumulative vote of 1 or higher. Ryan, Lee, Stephen, Tork and the rest have a good idea of what will work and what will not, and, for example, my unwashed ideas just might never be practical, no matter how awesome or popular my ideas are(mine are resoundingly downvoted, by the way). I trust Ryan and company will not make foolish game design choices, as they all have quite a lot invested in this project and want it to be a smashing success as much, if not much more then we all do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Taking what the "Crowd" wants to have in game through discussion is one, while overtly caving in every time someone whines about a mechanic or feature not being in (or out) is quite another. I don't think Crowdforging means GW will accept every upvoted thing on the ideascale website just because it has a cumulative vote of 1 or higher. Ryan, Lee, Stephen, Tork and the rest have a good idea of what will work and what will not, and, for example, my unwashed ideas just might never be practical, no matter how awesome or popular my ideas are(mine are resoundingly downvoted, by the way). I trust Ryan and company will not make foolish game design choices, as they all have quite a lot invested in this project and want it to be a smashing success as much, if not much more then we all do.
Correct. So I see you agree with my point then.
