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The exemplar is going to be a replacement for the paladin. It is going to be a class that can work for any alignment and built on the paladin chassis, the paladin being the LG version of the exemplar class.
First we'll have to decide which features are going to be specific to the LG version (paladin) and which features are going to apply to all exemplars.
Paladin Features:
So what is every exemplar going to share? I think we can all agree with keeping the HD, skill points (I think the number is too low, but ...PF), base attack, saves, weapon and armor proficiencies, and spell casting.
Aura, detect, smite, Channel, Divine bond, Aura of Faith, Aura of Righteousness, and Holy champion could be made relative to the characters alignment easily because its really just swapping words to make them work with other alignments. Or just give people the option as to what they detect, smite, and channel, which might work best for neutral alignment anyway. Aura of Courage, Divine Grace, Divine Health, and Aura of Resolve work for any alignment.
So what is every exemplar going to share? I think we can all agree with keeping the HD, skill points (I think the number is too low, but ...PF), base attack, saves, weapon and armor proficiencies, and spell casting.
Absolutely. When I was DMing 3.0 and 3.5 I included Divine Grace on this list. No reason for other exemplars to lose out on those sweet save bonuses. (It's a great perk for exemplar villains!)
As for the rest, a simple solution is to have each exemplar decide which aspect of her alignment to exemplify upon character creation. Obviously, partly-neutral PCs have but one choice -- a NG exemplar must exemplify Good, etc. -- while neutrality-free PCs have two choices. The other exemplar abilities fall into place after this decision is made:
Spell List: Add all of the aligned spells, along with the usual divine caster proviso. "An exemplar can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity's. Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaotic, evil, good, and lawful descriptors in their spell descriptions."
Aura of Good: Simply replace with the cleric's aura trait. "An exemplar of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see detect evil for details)."
Detect Evil: The exemplar detects whatever opposes the exemplified aspect of her alignment. Rename "Detect Opposition," or simply "Detect."
Smite Evil: The exemplar smites whatever opposes the exemplified aspect of her alignment. Rename "Smite Opposition," or simply "Smite."
The two abilities above leave true neutral exemplars SOL and effectively banned, unless maybe their exemplification of true neutrality manifests as an opposition to the four extremist alignments -- LG, CG, LE, and CE. I think it's a conceptual stretch though.
Channel Positive Energy, Lay on Hands, and the Mercies; These can simply be inverted into Channel Negative Energy, Withering Grip, and the Cruelties. The only thing that requires a bit of thought is deciding which Cruelties force which type of save.
Divine Bond: This stays mostly as-is, with the obvious addition of fiendish, axiomatic, and anarchic steeds for non-Good exemplars. Also additional Weapon Bond options -- unholy, axiomatic, and anarchic.
Aura of X: The aligned effects of the Aura of Faith, Aura of Righteousness, and Holy Champion obviously vary appropriately to the exemplified aspect of the exemplar's alignment. And Aura of Justice, Aura of Righteousness, and Holy Champion should be renamed to Shared Smite, Aura of Will, and Exemplary Champion.
Code of Conduct: I have no interest in policing a paladin more than I would a cleric, so I simply ported over the cleric text. "An exemplar who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as an exemplar of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description)."
Alternatively, an exemplar can forgo devout worship of a deity to 'worship' the alignment aspect which she exemplifies. In this case, the exemplar only falls if she grossly violates that aspect.
...And I think that's all, folks!
One thing we'll have to discuss is if the Exemplar is representative of a deity or alignment(s). Currently I believe the paladin is representative of the LG alignment much more than any deity.
I think I'd rather keep it that way, so an aura should be tied to their own alignment and not to the alignment of a deity they worship. Of course that brings up the problem, about what to do with Neutral Exemplar. Do they just pick an alignment to ... align with or do we need a true neutral alignment and matching smites and detects and such.
Also it was mentioned on the paladin thread this branched from that evil Exemplars could keep the detect evil and smite evil due to evil fighting itself. While I agree that happens, I would think it would make more sense for them to get detect good and smite good. Now maybe a CE Exemplar actually aligns more with Chaos than Evil and thus smites Law in the form of devils, while a LE Exemplar aligns more with Law and smites demons.
One thing we'll have to discuss is if the Exemplar is representative of a deity or alignment(s).
Imo, why not make it all inclusive and make them represent an ideal. That ideal can be a deity, in relation to a deity, in relation to an alignment, or whatever the exemplar is really championing.
yeah, a paladin's powers comes from the faith that what he is doing is the most correct. This should be moved away from specific deities.
the current paladin should become just Good, since most of it's stuff is simply an opposition to Evil.
if a Exemplar is dually aligned, then he must make a choice to make a stand on moral or ethical issues.
Well it is the paladin's code where the Lawful aspect shows up in the form of having to respect legitimate authority and acting with honor. A Chaotic Good Exemplar wouldn't be bound by either of those requirements.
One thing we'll have to discuss is if the Exemplar is representative of a deity or alignment(s). Currently I believe the paladin is representative of the LG alignment much more than any deity.
In past campaigns, I was happy to leave it as a player decision, much like cleric players get to choose to worship a deity or a philosophy. But I'd be happy with exemplars being devoted only to an alignment as well. :)
I think I'd rather keep it that way, so an aura should be tied to their own alignment and not to the alignment of a deity they worship. Of course that brings up the problem, about what to do with Neutral Exemplar. Do they just pick an alignment to ... align with or do we need a true neutral alignment and matching smites and detects and such.
Eh, I don't think that finding a mechanical niche for the true neutral exemplar is important, even if that means they're effectively banned. Maybe it's because I've never had a player request to play one, but it seems more effort than it's worth. At least until a player actually wants to play one. *shrug*
PS: For a long time before I carefully read the cleric's aura ability, I thought that it corresponded to their own alignment. I was actually pretty surprised to discover that a NG cleric of Paladine, for example, read as LG! So anyway, yeah, I'm totally cool with exemplars reading as their own alignment!
Also it was mentioned on the paladin thread this branched from that evil Exemplars could keep the detect evil and smite evil due to evil fighting itself. While I agree that happens, I would think it would make more sense for them to get detect good and smite good. Now maybe a CE Exemplar actually aligns more with Chaos than Evil and thus smites Law in the form of devils, while a LE Exemplar aligns more with Law and smites demons.
I agree; I think it'd be weird to have evil exemplars detecting and smiting evil, even given the 'evil consumes itself' trope.
EXEMPLAR
[INSERT DESCRIPTION]
Role: [INSERT DESCRIPTION]
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.
Class Skills
The exemplar's class skills are Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Stealth (Dex).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Base Attack: Full
Good Saves: Fort, Will
======================================================
Breaking this down a little at a time. So above I have the begin of the entry for the Exemplar. I have bolded the changes from the paladin entry. The skill additions are those from the anti-paladin.
Do you think all exemplars should have access to all exemplar skills or should some class skills be only for some particular exemplars. An exemplar of law maybe shouldn't have bluff or disguise for example, or maybe they should and it is up to the player to justify the choice.
Also are the additional skills that you think should be added to the Exemplar list.
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Personally, I'd skip Knowledge (Nobility) and Disguise. Neither is really necessary conceptually, and it gets the number back down to something reasonably close to Paladin.
Skills by Alignment is an interesting idea, but a bit unwieldy in practice, and not always appropriate (an Exemplar of LE should totally have Bluff, for example).
Eh, I don't think it'd be that problematic to have a basic exemplar skill list, and one or two skills for each alignment aspect: Chaotic = Bluff, Lawful = Sense Motive, etc.. But that would create some rather heavy-handed implications about exemplars of those alignments, and I'd just end up house ruling that all skills are class skills anyway.
I find the whole class vs cross-class skill thing to be more trouble than it's worth, but as you said in the OP, "...but PF." All clerics have the same skill list, whether they worship a god of lies and treachery or one of truth and justice, so simply porting over the paladin's skill list wouldn't exactly be without precedent.
So I guess what I'm saying is...eh, whatever. :/
I think there should still be an alignment restriction. Basically, no true neutral. You have to be na exemplar of SOMETHING. Neutral Good, Neutral evil etc, thats fine, just not full neutral.
Next, aura, detect, and smite (as will as divine bond weapon options) function off this alignment choice. LG, LE, CG, and CE can all choose one or the other.
So for instance, a LN Exemplar gets Aura of Law, Detect Chaos, Smite Chaos. A CG Exemplar can choose either Aura of Good or Aura of Chaose, Either Detect Law, or Detect Evil, etc.
If you are either good or evil you get lay on hands/mercy/divine grace or touch of corruption/cruelty/unholy resilience respectively. If you are LN or CN you can choose between the two.
Divine Bond/Fiendish boon also comes based on alignment choice, with CG adding in the appropriate weapon enhancements as well as LE to the ability.
Pres Man
There is a class that acts as a replacement for the paladin, its the warpriest. It is what the paladin ought to be.
@Deadmanwalking: remember the goal here is to provide a general version of the paladin class for use with any alignment, including LG. So we want to make the paladin as is a possible outcome of this class. Basically the paladin would be a subset of the Exemplar class. As such, we want to make sure that we don't remove the current paladin options, including knowledge (nobility).
@Tequila Sunrise: Yeah I know how you feel. At this point I think what I would be looking for is any skills that other Exemplar would probably fit with that aren't on the list.
@Kolokotroni: Well I think someone could argue that an Exemplar could represent pure balance, and so true neutral could work. My problem then is do we create a new set of abilities for a true neutral exemplar or let them choose one path to follow. I think the former would be more K.I.S.S. so probably the better choice. Keep in mind this project came about because some people were upset about the limits placed on paladins due to alignment, we are trying to create a more general class here to get around those limits and have the class be a more available base class.
But yes, true neutral is the one alignment I have the most reservations about myself. And if a code is developed, I don't want to see any dumb crap like "If side A is winning, you must aid side B. If side B then starts when, you must aid side A." That is ridiculous. Now if it is more about making sure that if side A is winning that side B is not wiped out, that is something else entirely.
@IthinkIbrokeit: Right, but the goal here is to make a class with the exact same fundamental type abilities as a paladin (adjusted for alignment perhaps), but available to all alignments. This isn't an issue of flavor or even general abilities, but instead the very specific abilities of the paladin class.
Again, the warpriest does the main things that the paladin does.
However, you really want a straight all alignment replacement then just remove the alignment restriction from the paladin. It changes exactly nothing about the game. Have paladins who are evil have a negative energy chanel.
Let paladins who are evil have a touch that inflicts wounds and the ability to spread disease. Honestly, both these powers are much less useful than curing those conditions.
A better power than lay on hands would be a lifesteal where an evil paladin gets health back while inflicting damage.
However, the paladin really ought to look more like the magus: He should have 6 levels of cleric casting and not quite a full BAB. The warpriest does this better, and has a number of powers that are very similar to the paladin.
@Tequila Sunrise: Yeah I know how you feel. At this point I think what I would be looking for is any skills that other Exemplar would probably fit with that aren't on the list.
Well, I don't think that Escape Artist*, Linguistics**, Sleight of Hand***, or any of your additions will go amiss.
*I'm an exemplar of FREEEEDOM!
**So I can exemplify my ideals in your native language!
***I'm an exemplar of free-spirited entertainment (or possibly underhanded EVIL)!
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@Deadmanwalking: remember the goal here is to provide a general version of the paladin class for use with any alignment, including LG. So we want to make the paladin as is a possible outcome of this class. Basically the paladin would be a subset of the Exemplar class. As such, we want to make sure that we don't remove the current paladin options, including knowledge (nobility).
The issue with this is, by including all possible Class Skills, you make Paladin entirely useless (since it's literally 'Paladin only better'), and debatably unbalance the class, which was created with very few of them in mind.
Alright, giving it a bit more thought, I think I like the idea of specific skills tied to alignment. Looking for what skills the paladin and the anti-paladin (the LG exemplar and CE exemplar respectively) have in common and different I've come up with the following lists.
Skills that paladin and anti-paladin have in common: Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Knowledge (religion), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)
Paladin only: Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), and Knowledge (nobility) (Int)
Anti-Paladin only: Bluff (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), and Stealth (Dex).
Now my idea is for each exemplar to choose two alignments (a primary one that is tied to most features and a secondary one that is tied to some skills and code issues). These alignments need not be the same as the alignment of the exemplar, but they can not be in opposition of the exemplar's alignment. That is a NG exemplar could choose Law & Good, Chaos & Good, or even Law & Chaos, but could not choose Evil and X. Of course this means the "corner" alignment don't really have a choice, and the true neutral exemplar could choose opposing alignments. Which actually might be okay if the true neutral was going for an exemplar of balance.
So going with this I would say that the bonus class skills might look like:
Chaos: Bluff (Cha), Disguise (Cha)
Evil: Intimidate (Cha), Stealth (Dex)
Good: Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis)
Law: Diplomacy (Cha), Knowledge (nobility) (Int)
EDIT: On second thought, probably the alignments chosen should be tied to the exemplar's alignment if the exemplar has any of the Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law. So a NG exemplar would have to have good and either law or chaos. Though it would still be up to the exemplar to choose which was the primary one. Also, since a true neutral exemplar wouldn't have any of those, they could still choose opposing alignments if they wanted to represent balance.
Hi all! This discussion never really concluded, but I went ahead and wrote up our current exemplar class in my blog.
Tweaking the class details made me realize that because the exemplar doesn't derive her power from a god, the class needs a set of appropriate 'holy symbol' analogues to use for certain class abilities, like channeling energy. I'm thinking that the exemplar's 'holy symbol' depends on the alignment she exemplifies -- Good=Silver, Law=Cold Iron, etc....does PF have a (semi-)consistent alignment=material scheme?
Haven't done the spell list yet -- which will mostly be a copy/paste job -- but ugh, I'm done blogging for the day, so it'll have to wait. Oh, and the 'what happens if the exemplar changes alignment' bit too.
Copy-pasted the paladin's spell list and added the obvious anti-good/law spells to it, but I haven't gone thru with a fine-toothed comb to add the less-obvious analogue spells. Wouldn't turn down any help from fans who know PF spells better than I do!
Bumping the thread once before I start a different thread to ask after analogues for:
1st Level
Blessing of the Watch
Bless Weapon
Challenge Evil
Empower Holy Water
Weapons Against Evil
2nd Level
Arrow of Law
Blinding Ray
Light Lance
Sacred Space
Wake of Light
3rd Level
Archon’s Aura
Blade of Bright Victory
Fire of Judgment
Holy Whisper
Sanctify Armor
Sanctify Weapons
4th Level
Bestow Grace of the Champion
Blaze of Glory
Crusader’s Edge
Eaglesoul
Un/Holy Sword
Oath of Peace
Shield of Dawn (aka Shield of the Dawnflower)
I'll nominate my Aeonic Paladin for this idea :) He's TN.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7vq?Aeonic-Paladin-True-Neutral-Alternate-Cla ss#1
I guess great minds really do think alike, Arcanemuses. ;)
Thinking about the four non-neutral alignments again -- LG, LE, CG, CE -- I can't help but think there must be a better catch-all term for them than 'extreme.' (Which was my own first impulse, as well.)
I mean, a chaotic evil dude isn't necessarily extreme -- he isn't by default any more chaotic than the chaotic neutral guy over there, or more evil than the neutral evil gal over here. He just happens to be both chaotic and evil.
Perhaps a better term for those who wholly reject neutrality would be 'imbalanced.' Or maybe that'd be too reminiscent of game balance flame wars? ;)
I guess great minds really do think alike, Arcanemuses. ;)
Thinking about the four non-neutral alignments again -- LG, LE, CG, CE -- I can't help but think there must be a better catch-all term for them than 'extreme.' (Which was my own first impulse, as well.)
I mean, a chaotic evil dude isn't necessarily extreme -- he isn't by default any more chaotic than the chaotic neutral guy over there, or more evil than the neutral evil gal over here. He just happens to be both chaotic and evil.
Perhaps a better term for those who wholly reject neutrality would be 'imbalanced.' Or maybe that'd be too reminiscent of game balance flame wars? ;)
Thank you. I got the term "extreme alignment" in the intelligent weapons section of the Core Rulebook. You'll see that TN weapons can choose an "extreme alignment", LG, LE, CG, CE as a chosen type of enemy.
To the issue of the bless weapon spell, easiest solution would be to use the align weapon spell in its place. The more complicated solution would be to rewrite the spell to have it apply appropriate to the particular exemplar.
Thank you. I got the term "extreme alignment" in the intelligent weapons section of the Core Rulebook. You'll see that TN weapons can choose an "extreme alignment", LG, LE, CG, CE as a chosen type of enemy.
Wow, I guess 'extreme' is a pretty pervasive term. I wonder if there's some old D&D source that we're [subconsciously] drawing on, or if the term is just that intuitive.
In any case, I added the TN option to the exemplar write-up. :)
To the issue of the bless weapon spell, easiest solution would be to use the align weapon spell in its place. The more complicated solution would be to rewrite the spell to have it apply appropriate to the particular exemplar.
I've already tweaked an entire class; I don't mind tweaking a few spells. ;)
Hope you don't mind that I hijacked your project, pres man. I just had to get it out of my system. :)
@All: Let me know if you see anything wrong or missing from my write-up. Minor typos, major omissions, anything!
To the issue of the bless weapon spell, easiest solution would be to use the align weapon spell in its place. The more complicated solution would be to rewrite the spell to have it apply appropriate to the particular exemplar.I've already tweaked an entire class; I don't mind tweaking a few spells. ;)
cool! Looks good!
A paladin's list has ten skills, or eight if you don't count craft and profession. Pick 4-6 skills that will be part of the permanent list that all exemplars have. Next make a list of skills that could be used to represent allof the different kids of exemplars. Instead of deciding whatr skills chaotic exemplars have and what kind good exemplars have, let the player choose. As part of a 1st level class feature, the new exemplar chooses 2-4 of these skills to represent his or her concept. This list could include the various social skills, plus some of the "underhanded" and utility skills.