I'm trying out a class based, level dependant defense bonus in place of armor, and using a custom armor as DR system in a current game. Logically, I can't see a reason why the defense bonus, which essentially represents learning to avoid incoming attacks in combat, wouldn't apply to touch AC, and since both armor value and natural armor are instead being applied to DR, the only significant difference between regular AC and touch AC will be shield value. Essentially there is no difference now between AC and touch AC.
The only drawback I can forsee is that casters may have a harder time landing touch spells. This will become less of a problem as levels grow, because the natural armor many higher CR monsters rely on will no longer be adding to their AC. As for the gunslinger, I plan to simply remove the target touch AC mechanic from guns, and replace it with with a punch through some DR mechanic. Is there anything else you can think of that removing touch AC would impact?
So Armor and Natural armor work as DR and no longer go on to AC, instead a class based, level dependent bonus is added to AC and touch AC?
If so then casters will probably have quite a hard time getting their touch spells in due to their lower bab, especially if AC scales with level (which is the idea I'm getting based on your description). I don't quite understand why you believe it will become less of a problem as levels grow, you mention natural armor but natural armor was never added to touch AC, so it's not a factor.
Besides touch spells and the gunslinger there are also splash weapons, like the alchemist's bombs.
Maybe a possible solution would to use the class level as a bonus on touch attacks, depending on how the level dependent bonus to AC scales this might have to be 1/2 caster level if full class level is too much. So essentially a level 5 wizard would then do normal melee attacks at str + 2, and melee touch attacks at str + 2 + 5. You'd have to run the numbers to see if this idea can work or not.
So Armor and Natural armor work as DR and no longer go on to AC, instead a class based, level dependent bonus is added to AC and touch AC?
If so then casters will probably have quite a hard time getting their touch spells in due to their lower bab, especially if AC scales with level (which is the idea I'm getting based on your description). I don't quite understand why you believe it will become less of a problem as levels grow, you mention natural armor but natural armor was never added to touch AC, so it's not a factor.
Sorry, I made an error there, what I meant to say was that since many higher CR creatures are entirely reliant on natural armor, their AC will remain largely unchanged in this system, so as it is already easy for a 1/2 Bab type to land a touch attack on a dragon, that will not greatly change.
Besides touch spells and the gunslinger there are also splash weapons, like the alchemist's bombs.Maybe a possible solution would to use the class level as a bonus on touch attacks, depending on how the level dependent bonus to AC scales this might have to be 1/2 caster level if full class level is too much. So essentially a level 5 wizard would then do normal melee attacks at str + 2, and melee touch attacks at str + 2 + 5. You'd have to run the numbers to see if this idea can work or not.
The highest the full caster defense bonus goes is +6 at level 20. Not only does it not make any sense to me why they'd add half of their defense bonus to touch attacks (and would it only apply to full casters, or would every class add half of their defense bonus to touch attacks... would enemies?), but also it would amount to a grand total of +3 by level 20, not a significant increase.
I think instead, I might just encourage casters that intend to rely on touch spells to invest in, and value their dexterity a bit more. It'll give them a reason to be less single minded in their pursuit of their casting stat.
Could you maybe explain how this system will work? I am confused as to why high level monsters wont also get a high bonus, or does this only scale with level and not hit dice? What about high level characters?
Its really hard to respond to what the potential problems might be without an actual understanding of what the system is going to do.
It's based on bab progression. Full bab classes begin with 4 and gain +1 every 3 levels. 3/4 bab classes begin with three and gain +1 every four levels. 1/2 bab begin with 2 and gain +1 every five levels. So, the max for full is 10 at 18, 3/4 is 8 at 20, 1/2 is 6 at 20. In the event of multi-classing (which I try to discourage), they do not stack, the better is used.
Meanwhile, natural armor gives 1/- DR per every three, rounding up, and manufactured armor gives 1/- DR per every two, rounding up. Shields add to AC instead of DR, although there's a feat to allow adding shield value to DR as well.
I'm not decided on how I'll handle monsters yet. My initial inclination is to add only the +1 values they would qualify for because of their HD to bab ratio, but not the base amounts.
Ok lets look at an example.
Fighter level 1 14 dex
His AC is 10+4+2 for a 16 correct?
Wizard with a 16 dex (pretty high i think right?) His bonus to his is +3. Needs a 13 to hit 'touch'.
At level 9 same fighter, now he has the dodge feat, has boosted his dex to 16, has a ring of protection +2.
His AC is 10+4+3+3+1+2 for 23
Same wizard now with an 18 dex, has a 4+3 bonus to hit. he now needs a +16 to hit.
18th level. Fighter now has a 18 dex, dodge feat, +4 ring of protection
AC is 10+4+4+6+1+4 for 29
Wizard now has a 20 dex, 5+9 to hit. Needs a 15+ to hit.
How does this become less of a problem as you level up?
Lets look at some monsters,
CR 8 dire tiger vs the level 9 wizard. 14hd, large sized, dex is 15
So thats 10+4(from hd)+2 - 1, thats a 15. So the wizard only needs a 8 to hit right? Not so bad. But keep in mind the fighter, has a WAY higher to hit bonus. This is going to be impossible to balance out between martial and non-martial characters. Suddenly the fighter's very high to hit bonus is not as important when compared to the barbarians heavy damage per hit (since monst defences will come in the form of dr).
So aside from touch attacks becoming essentially useless for wizards and sorcerors (3/4 bab characters will probably be ok) higher to hit bonuses will be less valuable then how much damage individual attacks do. Things like two weapon fighting and archery will lose alot of effectiveness.
There are alot of factors to consider here. This isnt going to be an easy change to get right.
So, hitting high stat PC classed characters that have magical gear will be difficult. Hitting monsters won't be. Lower to-hit bonuses will become more viable. I'm okay with all of these.
I actually kind of like the idea of touch attacks against fighters or other martial classes being more difficult. Who do you think it would be harder to place a hand on, if they wanted to avoid you, a person who avoids attacks professionally each day as a matter of life and death, or someone who doesn't? There are plenty of spells that don't require any kind of attack roll. Also, if they choose to wear armor for the DR or to benefit from magical armor abilities, their ability to apply Dex to AC will be impacted, so it's likely that some martials won't be buffing Dex much more than now.
Doesn't sound bad at all. I'm going to try this as-is in my current game and see how it works. Thanks for the input.
Basically this idea will trash all touch based casters and effectively make heavy armor the epic tier.
Running heavy armor as stands leaves you with generally pretty low touch AC making you vulnerable to spells.
Running light armor, high dex, leaves you in danger if you get caught flat footed, or somehow losing dex to AC.
Right now, heavy armor already gives you a higher non magical chance at AC (Mithral Plate mail for possible +12 with just 16 Dex). Basically buffing their touch AC's is removing one of the main strategies of dealing with high AC juggernauts. Give a Paladin full plate mail and a heavy shield and let him go to town. Nothing will touch him.
Level 18: Standard System
+3 :16 Dex
+5 :Deflection
+1 :Luck
+1 :Intuition (or whatever it was I'm too tired to look it up)
+1 :DodgeTouch AC: 21
Level 18: Your System
Touch AC: 31
Caster: 22 Dex +6, BAB +9, Shocking Grasp against metal armor +3
Even with a spell designed to hit people in metal armor and with a 22 in dexterity you're looking at 13 to hit if you've taken weapon finesse. Ranged attacks you won't need weapon finesse but you need a 16. Weapon Focus can drop these by 1, but short of magical buffs, most magical equipment (because the paladin only has haste, he's just using an ioun stone, a ring, and the jingasa)
This doesn't even bring up the fact that if we do go Dex type melee, they're basically only hittable by a Natural 20, even if you do focus significantly into it.
Unless you're assuming it's Mithril Full Plate, then you forgot max Dex, so it's only 29, and to be completely honest nobody in my games would hunt up that combo of items for all the misc +1, so I'll likely never see higher than 26 even if I give then "magic Mart" levels of item access. Furthermore, unless they break into spontaneous PvP, it's unlikely they'll ever face a PC classed character that optimized in combat, unless it's a final boss.
Meanwhile, an Ancient Red Dragon (something they'd be more likely to face than a heavily equipped Paladin) would have an AC of 13. Admittedly higher than their current 5 for touch, but still quite hittable.
... I always assume at high levels you're going to get mithral as adamantine generally won't be worth the cost.
Thats not heavily equipped. Other than the ring of deflection +5, not one of those items is worth more than 5 k, and one is just a haste spell.
Basically, you're bypassing the inherent system design of Touch = bane of super heavy armored types.
It doesn't have to be paladin btw, I chose him because his saves would also be through the freaking roof, any martial could easily have the AC. A barbarian or paladin can just pull the saves to go with it.
My apologies, I'm not familiar with your assumptions. Also, if someone was wearing Full Plate in this system, Adamantine would be a wise choice, since armor is soley a DR tool.
That's more heavily equipped than I'd use in more than one battle per story arc. Could you imagine the party getting a suit of Mithril Full Plate, and a +5 Ring of Protection after every battle? That would add up quite quickly.
I suppose I am bypassing that system design, but I don't know that it's an important system design to me. Wouldn't be the first one I've decided to ignore.
Certain undead creatures are threats because they target touch AC. You'll need to consider how your change affects their effectiveness in battle.
Certain undead creatures are threats because they target touch AC. You'll need to consider how your change affects their effectiveness in battle.
Oh, right, the incorporeal ones. I hadn't thought of that.