I'm working on some additional material for my setting, this archetype being one of them. It is a bit of a throwback to the 1e bard in some respects (more druidic overtones).
Bard Archetype - Ovate
Orisons (Sp) Ovate's learn a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Bard Spells Known under "Spells Known." These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.
This ability replaces cantrips.
Spells An ovate casts divine spells drawn from the druid spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every ovate spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). To learn or cast a spell, an ovate must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class (DC) for a saving throw against an ovate’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the ovate’s Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, an ovate can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
The ovate’s selection of spells is extremely limited. An ovate begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of the ovate’s choice. At each new ovate level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Bard Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells an ovate knows is not affected by his Charisma score (See Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third ovate level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), an ovate can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the ovate “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level ovate spell the ovate can cast. An ovate may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
An ovate need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.
This ability replaces bard spells.
Enhance Healing (Su) A number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier, an ovate can cause any healing effect from a spell completion or spell trigger item to function at a caster level equal to his class level.
This ability replaces versatile performance.
Augury (Ex) At 10th level, an ovate can determine the action likely to bring success with the least risk through natural signs and portents. Once per day, he can take 10 on any d20 roll. He may use this ability one additional time per day for every three levels after 10th.
This ability replaces jack of all trades.
Constructive comments and criticisms are appreciated.
I worry that the druid spell list is better and more varied than the Bard spell list and not targeted for 6 levels of casting. Making a spell list is a nightmare though, so I understand washing your hands of it.
I would give enhanced healing more uses, maybe. The life oracle gets that same effect at-will I believe. Or maybe I misremember? Maybe just give it as-few-as additional uses as a Bard would normally get versatile performance. Or maybe give him as-many-as class level+cha uses.
Either way, I don't really think it is overpowered.
Edit: I did misremember. They actually get the ability to add their full level to spells like cure light wounds instead of hitting a cap.
Nice concept Da'ath.
* Perhaps change the weapon and armor proficiencies to reflect a more wild association than the urbane bard? I'm not saying go the whole no metal armor schtick (I actually ignore that in my homebrew as I consider it a fallacious holdover from 1e. Metal is an element after all, and any processed-item-related arguments end at leather or hide….) but perhaps a similar array of weapons and light armor?
* I agree the druid list might be more powerful/offensive, but I think this is well within the range of not completely overpowering the class.
* Does Augury pertain to ANY d20 roll - Saves, Attacks?
Also, did you get my email?
I worry that the druid spell list is better and more varied than the Bard spell list and not targeted for 6 levels of casting. Making a spell list is a nightmare though, so I understand washing your hands of it.
I would give enhanced healing more uses, maybe. The life oracle gets that same effect at-will I believe. Or maybe I misremember? Maybe just give it as-few-as additional uses as a Bard would normally get versatile performance. Or maybe give him as-many-as class level+cha uses.
Either way, I don't really think it is overpowered.
Edit: I did misremember. They actually get the ability to add their full level to spells like cure light wounds instead of hitting a cap.
It is a bit of a concern. I don't mind the idea they're able to be a bit more offensively minded, but I need to really double and triple check the spells. On the first and second pass, I didn't notice any stand out as problem spells, but I need to give it a few more checks to be sure.
I think you're right. I lifted the enhanced healing from one of the bard archetypes, but it seems pretty limited for what they're giving up. How about:
Enhance Healing (Su) At 2nd level, a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier, an ovate can cause any healing effect from a spell completion or spell trigger item to function at a caster level equal to his class level. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the ovate gains an additional use of this ability per day.
This ability replaces versatile performance.
Nice concept Da'ath.
* Perhaps change the weapon and armor proficiencies to reflect a more wild association than the urbane bard? I'm not saying go the whole no metal armor schtick (I actually ignore that in my homebrew as I consider it a fallacious holdover from 1e. Metal is an element after all, and any processed-item-related arguments end at leather or hide….) but perhaps a similar array of weapons and light armor?
* I agree the druid list might be more powerful/offensive, but I think this is well within the range of not completely overpowering the class.
* Does Augury pertain to ANY d20 roll - Saves, Attacks?
Also, did you get my email?
Thanks! I've been feeling very nostalgic in some respects lately, ha!
I agree and am glad you pointed that out. It didn't even dawn on me to alter their proficiencies. How's this sound?
Weapon and Armor Proficiency Ovates are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, scythe, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear. Ovates are also proficient with light armor and shields (except tower shields).
This ability replaces a bard's weapon and armor proficiency.
At the moment, Augury as written functions on ANY d20 roll. I yanked it and reflavored it from the Archivist's "Probable Path".
I forgot to check my email over the weekend (gaming & was sick [again]), but did get it. I sent out a response not too long ago, so hopefully you got it.=)
Thanks, both of you, for your responses.
So you're only getting the first 6 of the druid's 9 circles of spells? That seems fairly cautious.
Sir, are you advocating 9 levels of a spontaneous casting with full bardic music powers?
*monocle pops clean off his face and breaks the chain as it careens across the room*
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So you're only getting the first 6 of the druid's 9 circles of spells? That seems fairly cautious.Sir, are you advocating 9 levels of a spontaneous casting with full bardic music powers?
*monocle pops clean off his face and breaks the chain as it careens across the room*
Spontaneous casting with limited knowledge isn't more powerful than prepared casting with complete spell knowledge. This wouldn't be a more powerful spellcaster than a regular druid.
And I really don't think bardic music is more powerful than wildshape.
So yeah, that actually wouldn't scare me.
I think I disagree about wildshape. Inspire courage is a g+&!#$n amazing ability and that power would be compounded as the class gets access to things like higher levels of summon nature's ally. The bonuses from attack and damage rolls would nearly outpace the strength bonuses doing the same in wild shape. Inspire competence is also an amazing ability with huge synergies for every build that relies on skill checks.
Also recall that bards are chock-full of skill utility. I know some people think bards are underpowered but they can step up the viability of your melee characters by a fair bit and also help casters hit with their touch attacks. I think bards are pretty damn good without 9 levels of druid casting.
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Yeah, I wasn't so much advocating 9 levels of bardruid casting; but saying that 6 levels doesn't look like "too much" to me. You get Flame Strike at level 10, while clerics get it at 9 and druids at 7. That looks "cautious" to me.
Normally a bard has the advantage of wearing more armor than a wizard without messing up arcane spellcasting. Compared to a druid that's not so special anymore.
A radical alternative would be to give the ovate full spell knowledge and 6 levels of spontaneous spellcasting. You'd have to sacrifice a lot of other class features to balance it, but here's why I would want it:
I've always felt that the druid spell list has a lot of very situational spells on it; too situational for precious limited-spells-known, but also a bit too situational to actually prepare. So they're consigned to either scrolls or only being prepared if you know precisely where you're going. You normally prepare only the spells that you can rely on using every day.
Spontaneous casting with unlimited knowledge would cut that gordian knot.
It has always been my goal to err on the side of caution. I'm not always successful, but I try. I get a lot less resistance when trying to improve abilities than trying to whittle away at them.
While I agree that the druid does have a lot of situation spells, I'm extremely hesitant to rock the boat in this respect; I don't like to provide players (specifically my players) a foot to stand on to posit that sorcerers and other similar spontaneous classes be adjusted similarly.
What I keep coming back to, for the ovate, is the druid's nature bond; I keep wanting to find an excuse - a good excuse - to grant them one of the available domains (not an animal companion). It would expand their spell knowledge slightly, grant them a couple tricks, and round out their character a little more.
How about dropping countersong, distract or fascinate for that nature bond, or all three? I can see them in or out for an ovate...
How about dropping countersong, distract or fascinate for that nature bond, or all three? I can see them in or out for an ovate...
I'll give that a shot and see how it looks.
You know, I've been putting this off since Paizo first released archetypes, which has only made more work for me, but I need to get off my butt and put together a Class Feature Equivalency list or find one, i.e. Paizo values this class feature as being exchangeable for that one. It would make a great "guideline" and make research so much quicker.
I went ahead and threw it together in a google doc to make it much easier to review.
Well, you could do worse than check out the Talented series from Rogue Genius Games (though that is equivalency across a class and it's archetypes. We also work a lot with equivalencies when we make our Multiclass Archetypes, though we don't use a hard-coded table.
Well, you could do worse than check out the Talented series from Rogue Genius Games (though that is equivalency across a class and it's archetypes. We also work a lot with equivalencies when we make our Multiclass Archetypes, though we don't use a hard-coded table.
I'll have to check those out. I still use a table for comparison from an old giantitp.com post for equivalencies as a base guideline, but it is purely 3.5 and includes none of the options for Pathfinder.
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I'm not so sure Paizo really has such an equivalency table. I think this is one of those cases where fans think the company has much more planning than it actually has.
I remember White Wolf developers having a laugh about the fan who asked about the Big Metaplot Plan. Turns out they were just making it up as they went along, but from the outside it looked like there was a real strategy.
I'm not so sure Paizo really has such an equivalency table. I think this is one of those cases where fans think the company has much more planning than it actually has.
I agree with you. Paizo's material is inconsistent in many respects, but I try to be very consistent. I typically use an equivalency chart as a rough guideline when making new things and always log what I do and why so I can go back and correct any mistakes a decision I make across the board.
A good example is hide in plain sight. There are roughly 5 versions, all worded differently. That alone tells me the "left hand" doesn't have a clue what the "right hand" is doing. It's one of the reasons I live these boards so much - our opinions may differ on things, but we generally try to help for love of the game.
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I'm not really concerned about Paizo's "inconsistency" - I think most companies behave that way really.
I think Paizo has in fact been fairly consistent in maintaining the power level of CRB vs. new stuff. Whenever I'm selecting spells or feats, it turns out many of the best ones are still in the CRB.