Does anybody else think that a large part of what makes spell so good is that saving throw progression fails to mathematically keep up?
As we all known, the DC for spell saves is 10+spell level+Caster Stat mod. Additionally, casters get a new spell level every time they hit an odd level.
This SHOULD mean that your "bad" saves increase at this same rate, so that you start with a +1 and get a +1 every time you get to an odd level. This would mean that the chance to save against a level appropriate spells would remain fixed and the variance would be the difference between the casters stat and your defensive stat. This in itself could still be quite large, but at least the defender would not be getting worse at defending against level appropriate challenges.
I had a long post I just deleted, as it got off topic and became a rant.
On topic: your idea has merit and has been done in one iteration of d20 (SWSE). However, I'm on my phone and can't check the math right now to make sure it wouldn't have unexpected results.
If we take ability scores out of the equasion, then good saving throw should be a little better than the spell's DC because of the free +2, and the caster must spend feats to improve the DC. Now when we factor in ability scores, the caster is using a prime ability score, while with the defender it might be anything. When we add in spells and magic items, it is easier to increase saving throws than it is to increase spell DCs.
I think, all in all, I disagree with you on the subject of good saves.
If we take ability scores out of the equasion, then good saving throw should be a little better than the spell's DC because of the free +2, and the caster must spend feats to improve the DC. Now when we factor in ability scores, the caster is using a prime ability score, while with the defender it might be anything. When we add in spells and magic items, it is easier to increase saving throws than it is to increase spell DCs.
I think, all in all, I disagree with you on the subject of good saves.
Valid points. One of the major problems with balancing anything in a D&D game is taking into account all of the factors. Magic items and magic are often the most disruptive of these factors.
Ciaran Barnes:
Each caster has only one casting stat while improving saving throws is always a multiple attribute affair. Further, the caster can choose from a host of different spells to target the weakest of the targets defenses.
It is simply not factually true that it is easier to raise saves than DCs. DCs can be raised through feats, specializations, anything that raises ability scores, or through magic items whose only purpose is to increase DC. These all exist from published sources. These same methods all exist to raise saving throws as well, however, because each caster has but 1 casting stat and each object in the game has 3 saving throws the advantage always lies with the attacker.
Da'ath;
I was not really talking about adjusting the "good" saves. Only bad saves. Good saves already grow faster than spell levels anyway. Look at this chart to see what I a mean
A B C D E F G H I
1 1 11 2 0 0.4 0.5 0 0.5
2 1 11 3 0 0.35 0.5 0 0.5
3 2 12 3 1 0.4 0.5 1 0.5
4 2 12 4 1 0.35 0.5 1 0.5
5 3 13 4 1 0.4 0.55 2 0.5
6 3 13 5 2 0.35 0.5 2 0.5
7 4 14 5 2 0.4 0.55 3 0.5
8 4 14 6 2 0.35 0.55 3 0.5
9 5 15 6 3 0.4 0.55 4 0.5
10 5 15 7 3 0.35 0.55 4 0.5
11 6 16 7 3 0.4 0.6 5 0.5
12 6 16 8 4 0.35 0.55 5 0.5
13 7 17 8 4 0.4 0.6 6 0.5
14 7 17 9 4 0.35 0.6 6 0.5
15 8 18 9 5 0.4 0.6 7 0.5
16 8 18 10 5 0.35 0.6 7 0.5
17 9 19 10 5 0.4 0.65 8 0.5
18 9 19 11 6 0.35 0.6 8 0.5
19 9 19 11 6 0.35 0.6 8 0.5
20 9 19 12 6 0.3 0.6 8 0.5
A: Character Level
B: Wizard spell Level available
C: Spell Save DC before Caster Stat Modifier
D: Good Save Progression
E: Bad Save Progression
F: Chance for spell of highest level to SUCCEED against good saves (Assuming save stat = cast stat)
G: Chance for Spell to SUCCEED against bad saves (Assuming save stat = cast stat)
H: Proposed Bad save progression
I: Chance for spell to SUCCEED against proposed bad save progession (assuming cast stat= save stat).
Because saves are meet or beat for the DEFENDER you actually only need for the save bonus to be 1 less than the DC to allow for a 50% chance of success.
Also not that for the levels that are considered most playable the variance between this and the existing bad saves is minimal. Its only at higher levels where the progression breakdown results in a scewed result.
Finally, also remember that making this adjustment would still mean that there would be a considerable variance in actual saving throws because in pretty much all cases cast stat =/= save stat. So it would be more stable, but still unique to each character.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I see what you're saying now. You may or may not be aware, but there was a 3rd saving throw category that existed in WotC 3.0 products once upon a time (Star Wars Revised d20 comes to mind): Good, Fair, Poor. If I remember correctly, the formula was 1 2/5 + 2/5 per level. It gave a range between +1 and +9 modifier, which is very similar to what you propose.
In my opinion, it was the right idea then and still is. I say that because a change in this fashion is moving in the direction of removing the need, for example, for a cloak of resistance to even exist.
I'm a huge fan of removing certain big 6 items.
Longwinded way of saying I agree with you, ha!
My Thoughts:
Good saves work off a 2 + 1/2 character level + stat + misc.
Poor Saves work off of 1/2 character level + stat + misc.
Somewhere around 9-10th, good saves base class bonus should increase from +2 to +4.
The only real issue I see then are casting DCs, since basing them off spell level with this idea would make them a waste of print. Since feats exist for both saves and DCs, we can ignore those (for now). All spellcasting DCs should probably be calculated as 10 + 1/2 caster level + stat modifier + misc.
Add in a little 4e (this is literally one of two things I liked about 4e).
Fortitude: Your Strength or Constitution modifier (whichever is higher) increases this save.
Reflex: Your Dexterity or Intelligence modifier (whichever is higher) increases this save.
Will: Your Wisdom or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher) increases this save.
For Fighters: add to Armor Training I: In addition, equipping a shield will add to your Reflex save.
That moves to solve three problems: saves are repaired somewhat, 3 more stats are made a little more useful, and reduced the number of spellcasting DCs one has to remember.
My opinion, mind you.