I've been considering experimenting with removing the sole acquisition of bonus skill points from Intelligence, i.e. spreading it throughout the other attributes. While I'm sure it has been done before, the meat of what I'm considering is as follows:
Characters gain skill points from their class. These skill points may be freely spent on the class' class skill list, referred to as general skill points. Additionally, characters gain bonus skills from all attributes which grant a positive modifier. Attribute-based skill points may be spent on skills modified by said attribute. A character may exchange 2 attribute based skill points for 1 general skill point.
For example, Yellowbeard the Pirate (Human Fighter 1) has the following attributes: Str 15, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10. He gains 2 skill ranks from Fighter 1, 2 Strength related skill ranks (RSR), 2 Dexterity RSR, 1 Constitution RSR, and 1 Wisdom RSR.
Using the above rules, Yellowbeard might have the following skills: Climb +6, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (engineering) +4, Profession (Sailor) +5, Survival +5, and Swim +6 with a single Dexterity RSR remaining to combine for the next level, or apply to a skill he's selected from multiclassing.
Using the normal rules for skill points, Yellowbeard might have the following skills: Intimidate +4, Profession (Sailor) +5, Swim +7.
Any feedback would be appreciated, whether simply speculation or experience with similar rules. At this point, it is just a passing thought I've not really invested much time in researching or consideration of potential exploits.
Notes: Perhaps limit attribute skill combining for general skill points, somewhat. Requires 2 physical to purchase a rank in a physical skill; 2 mental to purchase a single rank in another mental skill?
maybe allow each character to combine the bonuses of two mental attributes instead of user INT.
The only reason I would suggest against this.
If your players are making a fighter or barbarian, what is the downside to dumping INT? Every other Attribute has a negative impact for dumping it, you pull skills off on INT then there is no downside to dumping int, other than a penalty on knowledge skills that the characters are unlikely to take anyway.
Physical to Physical makes sense to me.
One issue: While a very strong character is somewhat self-limited (only two Str skills), a very intelligent character still has a very large selection.
I'd suggest 2:1 overall, Physical to Physical, Mental to Mental (no exchange rate). "Leftovers" can combine (and be used for either), or round up if just one.
Example: Standard array character (15,14,13,12,10,8)
Normal: Maximum bonus skill points normally from 17 Int = +3.
This method: Maximum bonus skill points would be from taking a penalty to the 8 (e.g. dwarf cha 6): 15,14,15,12,12,6 = 3 physical, 1 mental skill points, for +4. +3 if you include the penalty.
This keeps the 'cap' on skills a little more consistent, while giving them out more broadly.
The problem with this is that it makes int worthless to anyone who is not an int caster. The only thing int gives besides that are more skills and bonus languages.
maybe allow each character to combine the bonuses of two mental attributes instead of user INT.
The only reason I would suggest against this.
If your players are making a fighter or barbarian, what is the downside to dumping INT? Every other Attribute has a negative impact for dumping it, you pull skills off on INT then there is no downside to dumping int, other than a penalty on knowledge skills that the characters are unlikely to take anyway.
I want to make certain I understand what you're suggesting - I think I do, but I'm not 100% sure. In lieu of using all attribute bonuses, you're suggesting tallying only those from Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, yes? If I understand you correctly, this is to prevent warrior types from dumping mental stats, but still allows for the casters to dump physical stats, no?
If I understood correctly, I agree with your intent 100% - applying a penalty to dumping stats.
Physical to Physical makes sense to me.
One issue: While a very strong character is somewhat self-limited (only two Str skills), a very intelligent character still has a very large selection.
I'd suggest 2:1 overall, Physical to Physical, Mental to Mental (no exchange rate). "Leftovers" can combine (and be used for either), or round up if just one.
Example: Standard array character (15,14,13,12,10,8)
Normal: Maximum bonus skill points normally from 17 Int = +3.
This method: Maximum bonus skill points would be from taking a penalty to the 8 (e.g. dwarf cha 6): 15,14,15,12,12,6 = 3 physical, 1 mental skill points, for +4. +3 if you include the penalty.This keeps the 'cap' on skills a little more consistent, while giving them out more broadly.
As with my above response, if I understand you correctly, I think I really dig the limitation you applied. Please correct me if I am wrong; I'll use the following example to make sure I'm on the same page:
Human Wizard 1st level: Intelligence 15 (+2 = 17 (+3 mental)),Dexterity 14 (+2 physical), Constitution 13 (+1 physical),Wisdom 12 (+1 mental), Charisma 10 (+0), Strength 8 (-1 physical)
* 2 Class (can be spent on anything in one's class skill list)
* 4 Mental at a 2:1 excange = 2 mental skill points (can be spent on Int/Wis/Cha skills in one's class skills)
* 2 Physical (2 Dex + 1 Con - 1 Strength) = 1 physical skill point (can be spent on Str/Dex/Con skills in one's class skills)
In essence, dumped stats result in a loss of skill points in the attribute category dumped.
The problem with this is that it makes int worthless to anyone who is not an int caster. The only thing int gives besides that are more skills and bonus languages.
To a degree, I agree. It still provides potential bonus skill points, a modifier to all Int-based skills, and bonus languages. There are so many things in 3.X games that make attributes irrelevant in one form or fashion (chief among them spells and magic items). As it stands (excluding roleplay reasons), the only reason to take an Intelligence of greater than 10 (mechanically )for a non-Intelligence based caster is for feat requirements, which cap at Intelligence 13. I don't recall the last time I saw a melee character select an Intelligence greater than 13.
With that in mind, I've added several different benefits to certain Intelligence-based skills in my home setting. For example:
Knowledge (Soril) [replacement for knowledge local and broader spectrum)
* Identify a race and their nationality: DC 10-20 depending on obscurity: +5 DC to identify their strengths and weaknesses
* Know the location of a useful person, city, or building where a particular service can be obtained: DC 20-30 depending on obscurity
* Know the history, prejudices, and customs of a people: DC 15-25 depending on obscurity
One of the primary reasons I'm giving the idea more than just a passing, "Huh," was due to the thought it might increase the variety of skills selected by players, while granting a few extra skills to devote to the strengths of a particular class' skill list.
Well, I currently build rogues and bards with high int specifically to get more skills.
You can partially alleviate this problem by just making int uniquely fungible (i.e. int skill points can go to any skill while strength skill points can just go to strength). And/or (I would say "and") you can have other attributes gain skills based on half modifier while int gains full modifier.
I think your effort to make intelligence skills better is a good route too, though. I would maybe have to push things farther than what you have listed there, however.
maybe allow each character to combine the bonuses of two mental attributes instead of user INT.
The only reason I would suggest against this.
If your players are making a fighter or barbarian, what is the downside to dumping INT? Every other Attribute has a negative impact for dumping it, you pull skills off on INT then there is no downside to dumping int, other than a penalty on knowledge skills that the characters are unlikely to take anyway.
I want to make certain I understand what you're suggesting - I think I do, but I'm not 100% sure. In lieu of using all attribute bonuses, you're suggesting tallying only those from Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, yes? If I understand you correctly, this is to prevent warrior types from dumping mental stats, but still allows for the casters to dump physical stats, no?
If I understood correctly, I agree with your intent 100% - applying a penalty to dumping stats.
yes, my suggestion to handle the issue of 'not making everyone dependant on INT for skills' is let every character select two mental stats and combine the modifiers (so if you dump two mental stats, it still hurts)
but, I also caution against any change as there are tangible penalties to dumping any stat, Int's being skill points. and I think those penalties should exist.
Well, I currently build rogues and bards with high int specifically to get more skills.
You can partially alleviate this problem by just making int uniquely fungible (i.e. int skill points can go to any skill while strength skill points can just go to strength). And/or (I would say "and") you can have other attributes gain skills based on half modifier while int gains full modifier.
I think your effort to make intelligence skills better is a good route too, though. I would maybe have to push things farther than what you have listed there, however.
I've tried to add additional traits to a lot of skills, but it is an extremely slow process to make sure it doesn't affect something I had no intention of altering. I feel that the reason certain skills are ignored entirely is due entirely to a flaw in the skill system (well, that and magic). For example, I've added the following uses to this very short list of skills:
Linguistics: Break a Code, Create a CipherEndurance (Con): Force March, Hold Breath, Ignore Hunger, Ignore Thirst, Run, Sleep in Armor, Tread Water.
Heal: First Aid, Long-Term Care, Perform Surgery, Heal Damage, Revivify (ressurect someone if only a certain number of rounds have passed since their death), Treat Disease, Treat Poison, Treat Radiation.
Perform: Influence an Audience, Performance, Rites and Rituals
Survival: Basic Survival, Create Defensive Position, Endure Extreme Temperatures, Know Direction, Track
maybe allow each character to combine the bonuses of two mental attributes instead of user INT.
The only reason I would suggest against this.
If your players are making a fighter or barbarian, what is the downside to dumping INT? Every other Attribute has a negative impact for dumping it, you pull skills off on INT then there is no downside to dumping int, other than a penalty on knowledge skills that the characters are unlikely to take anyway.
I want to make certain I understand what you're suggesting - I think I do, but I'm not 100% sure. In lieu of using all attribute bonuses, you're suggesting tallying only those from Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, yes? If I understand you correctly, this is to prevent warrior types from dumping mental stats, but still allows for the casters to dump physical stats, no?
If I understood correctly, I agree with your intent 100% - applying a penalty to dumping stats.
yes, my suggestion to handle the issue of 'not making everyone dependant on INT for skills' is let every character select two mental stats and combine the modifiers (so if you dump two mental stats, it still hurts)
but, I also caution against any change as there are tangible penalties to dumping any stat, Int's being skill points. and I think those penalties should exist.
I definitely agree: tangible losses are a must and thanks for the clarification!
Well, I currently build rogues and bards with high int specifically to get more skills.
You can partially alleviate this problem by just making int uniquely fungible (i.e. int skill points can go to any skill while strength skill points can just go to strength). And/or (I would say "and") you can have other attributes gain skills based on half modifier while int gains full modifier.
I think your effort to make intelligence skills better is a good route too, though. I would maybe have to push things farther than what you have listed there, however.
I've tried to add additional traits to a lot of skills, but it is an extremely slow process to make sure it doesn't affect something I had no intention of altering. I feel that the reason certain skills are ignored entirely is due entirely to a flaw in the skill system (well, that and magic). For example, I've added the following uses to this very short list of skills:
Linguistics: Break a Code, Create a Cipher
Endurance (Con): Force March, Hold Breath, Ignore Hunger, Ignore Thirst, Run, Sleep in Armor, Tread Water.
Heal: First Aid, Long-Term Care, Perform Surgery, Heal Damage, Revivify (ressurect someone if only a certain number of rounds have passed since their death), Treat Disease, Treat Poison, Treat Radiation.
Perform: Influence an Audience, Performance, Rites and Rituals
Survival: Basic Survival, Create Defensive Position, Endure Extreme Temperatures, Know Direction, Track
Yeah. But only one of those are int skills. If you are going to implement your skill system (and thus destroy the usefulness of int as myself and others worry) then I am going to say go crazy with improvements to int skills. Then you can reign them in with play testing.
I think this would make an interesting replacement for either 1st-level skill points or for a character's initial class skills. After all, most people tend to focus on building upon their strengths and solving problems by means at which they excel.
It could be interesting to playtest characters receiving their skill points based upon ability scores, although given the limited number of Strength-based skills, it might be best to use the sum of Str and Dex modifiers to determine physical skill points while allowing skill points from one's Int modifier to be applied to anything (as per the default rules). Doing so would tend to exemplify the athleticism of more physical characters, the social dynamism of charismatic characters, etc. while still allowing those possessed of great intelligence to have great versatility.
I think this would make an interesting replacement for either 1st-level skill points or for a character's initial class skills. After all, most people tend to focus on building upon their strengths and solving problems by means at which they excel.
It could be interesting to playtest characters receiving their skill points based upon ability scores, although given the limited number of Strength-based skills, it might be best to use the sum of Str and Dex modifiers to determine physical skill points while allowing skill points from one's Int modifier to be applied to anything (as per the default rules). Doing so would tend to exemplify the athleticism of more physical characters, the social dynamism of charismatic characters, etc. while still allowing those possessed of great intelligence to have great versatility.
It still makes intelligence a much much less necessary investment.
@Da'ath
The best solution that I could come up with is that int grants 1.5x or 2x its int mod in skills. 2x seems like a bit much but it is really the only thing that could get a martial character from valuing a 12 int over a 10 int or a 16 int over a 14 int (since those 2 points can just as easily be dropped in anywhere else and get a skill there instead).
I think this would make an interesting replacement for either 1st-level skill points or for a character's initial class skills. After all, most people tend to focus on building upon their strengths and solving problems by means at which they excel.
It could be interesting to playtest characters receiving their skill points based upon ability scores, although given the limited number of Strength-based skills, it might be best to use the sum of Str and Dex modifiers to determine physical skill points while allowing skill points from one's Int modifier to be applied to anything (as per the default rules). Doing so would tend to exemplify the athleticism of more physical characters, the social dynamism of charismatic characters, etc. while still allowing those possessed of great intelligence to have great versatility.
I do rather like that idea. It doesn't devalue the benefits of Intelligence, particularly as a one time bonus at 1st level, and gives a few potential "background" skills, which is really no different than other systems which give them for "free".