Hey community! I have a kinda a weird situation I wanted to consult you about...
I have been a GM for a group of guys at my university for awhile, and in the past we've agreed that guns should not exist in our campaigns, because as soon as they become a thing, it signals the change from a swords and sorcery world to a guns and sorcery world. A number of my players really like to play sword/armor heroes, so they dislike how the presence of guns signals the change of time in the world, and their now obsolete defenses. This is largely due to the fact that guns resolve against Touch AC, thus making armor based classes obsolete in light of the new age of gunpowder.
Now, one of my players wants to make a gunslinger, and some of the other guys are not so cool with it. We've come up with an idea to resolve the situation so that both armor and gunslingers can happily inhabit the same world without either having a significant natural advantage over the other, that leaves the world's medieval themes intact and still gives the gunslinger a special place. We're not so bothered by the balance of the gunslinger, but by how it functions thematically. So, after some deliberation and consultation, we made these changes to the gunslinger to make it less thematically destructive to the world's amor and sword barring coolness, while maintaining the gunslingers streak of awesomeness and its balance.
Here are the changes, what do you think?
1- The first change is to make guns unable to naturally resolve against Touch AC.
(Magical amor or natural amor in a magical world is lighter and sturdier than in our own world, so that it can hold up against gunshots, especially old guns. Now guns hold no natural advantage over bows, except that they can be more easily aimed at weak points in armor, resulting in the next rule change.)
2- The second change is gunslingers may still use the Deadeye Deed to resolve their attacks against Touch AC, but that the first expenditure of grit only gives you the natural range of the gun against Touch AC.
(The idea is that we make this ability consumable, and must be used more carefully. Also, since guns are naturally easier to aim with than bows, one can use their natural skill (grit points) to make careful shots against Touch AC.)
3- The third argues gunslingers get good at aiming very fast so they get the PinPoint Targeting feat at the 6th level for free without meeting any prerequisite.
(Keep in mind that this feat only works when you make a single attack, and since the 6th level is when gunslingers start naturally getting multiple attacks, they have to decide when out of grit points whether to use this feat or make more attacks.)
4- The fourth rules that despite all possible deeds, feats, and alchemical cartages one can acquire, a gun can never be reloaded faster then a swift action. So, conceivably, in one turn a player could reload a gun once as a swift action, once as a move action, and once as a standard action, totaling in 3 guns reloaded in one turn, but nothing else done. This does not restrict a player from preparing several shots before combat or ahead of a turn, and firing them all at once in one round, this simply restricts the reload speed.
(old guns are hard to reload)
5- The fifth is that all guns and ammunition cost half their listed official price in the game guides. Plain and simple, but magic enhancement still costs the same as the guides say.
(This is so that we remove the frustrating cost of all ammunition and guns in the game so that gunslingers don't feel so weak in the early game, and never have to constantly worry about how much their attacks are costing them. It lessens this odd mechanic, and helps balance the nerfs mentioned above).
6- Any gun only misfires with a natural 1, even after the first misfire. Upon the second misfire, the gunslinger can pick a square up to a distance equal to the gun's first range increment, and with a successful reflex save, the gunslinger can throw the gun before it explodes into that square and have its explosion act like a slash weapon dealing the guns damage in an area. a failed reflex save causes the gun to explode under the normal rules, except the gunslinger always takes half damage.
7- Finally, only early firearms are available in our campaign. Because firearms have no natural advantage in the world over armor, other then they are still pretty effective, and because gunpowder is rare but available, people haven't developed, and may never develop advanced firearms, except in extraordinary cases.
These are the changes we agreed on, and as of yet we haven't started to test it out.
I'm curious what people think about these changes, especially those who have had more experience playing with this rather unusual class. I was also wondering if anyone knew of other home-brewed gunslingers who've adjusted the rules for similar thematic needs. Any links to such discussions would be welcome. Thanks everyone!
The Gunslinger in your game sounds very weak compared to archers, to the point where playing one might actually cause the Gunslinger to not pull their weight compared to other players. Here is why:
-At 6th level an archer can rapid shot and fire an iterative attack. The archer may even have Manyshot. The archer also gets all their iterative attacks without needing to expend feats.
-At 6th level the gunslinger has to take rapid reload and use alchemical cartridges in order to take their iterative attacks.
In other words, the archer takes feats to get stronger. The gunslinger takes feats to catch up to a featless archer.
The archer can fire a many shot, a rapid shot, and a -5 BAB shot. The Gunslinger just fires 2 shots, one at -5.
The gunslinger's damage per shot is about equal to the archer's.
I get the feeling that you have overnerfed the Gunslinger.
Suggestions:
-Allow Deadly Aim to add +4 damage, and an additional +4 damage at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 BaB.
-increase grit points for gunslingers to double what they get
-allow them to use deadly aim to qualify for vital strike
Despite what you think of the base gunslinger, it really isn't an over powered class. The gunslingers ability to hit with Touch AC is the only real thing that gives gunslingers any bite at all. If you take that away, any archer is better than a gunslinger can ever be, and would never be a class worth playing.
Instead of nerfing the gunslinger, I'd allow the player to run a standard gunslinger for a limited time, as kind of a playtest for your group, but should at least cover an entire level or two of progression to see its overall impact to your game. Make it known to that player, that if the gunslinger turns out to be too over powered for your game, then he ought to have a second class build ready to replace the gunslinger - so it won't be a surprise to ruin his fun.
That said, the gunslinger is not over powered, and I think its your group's lack of experience with a gunslinger making you predisposed against it. Drop that bias and let him play, I think you'll find it well within the balance of other character classes.
Thanks Adam. The lack of power to the gunslinger is an issue, one that I wasn't sure how to over come. The idea is that I want to make them more like the Ranger. the extra damage feats also fit the style that I was looking for. The idea that gunslingers don't attack a lot but deal lots of damage is kinda cool.
Again, I'm not so conceded about the balance of the original gunslinger, we simply dislike it thematically. It's presence usurers in a new world, one where swords and armor becomes rapidly less practical. We're trying to fix that, not by making the gunslinger weaker, but changing how it works on a basic level.
As stated the gunslinger is not overpowered, and in no way does one make swords and armor impractical in the wake of a gunslinger. I would rather play a paladin with armor and sword than a gunslinger with all things being equal. Making the gunslinger weaker just guts the class making it totally unplayable compared to the other standard classes.
Thanks Adam. The lack of power to the gunslinger is an issue, one that I wasn't sure how to over come. The idea is that I want to make them more like the Ranger. the extra damage feats also fit the style that I was looking for. The idea that gunslingers don't attack a lot but deal lots of damage is kinda cool.
Again, I'm not so conceded about the balance of the original gunslinger, we simply dislike it thematically. It's presence usurers in a new world, one where swords and armor becomes rapidly less practical. We're trying to fix that, not by making the gunslinger weaker, but changing how it works on a basic level.
I get you. Instead of having the current gunslinger be a machinegun (firing 3 musket shots in 6 seconds? lets be real) like an archer, I think it would be more thematic for it to be a cannon. One or two big shots a round.Of course even with my suggested changes I don't know if the shot will be big enough. Are any of your players going to playtest it? If not, you can playtest it with enemies you create to fight the party.
I can put in some quick math for 8th level characters though. Assuming an 18 in dex for the gunslinger and a 16 strength and 17 dex for the archer (fighter):
Archer: A manyshot, a rapid shot, and an iterative shot at
+9/+9/+4
with the manyshot dealing 2d8+26 and the normal shots dealing 1d8+13
Gunslinger (assuming musket): two shots or one vital strike at
+10/+5
Shots deal 1d12+17 and the vital strike at 2d12+17.
From here, it looks like my suggestions help, but do not completely bridge the gap. I also realize that using vital strike kind of invalidates Dead Shot. Perhaps some buffing can go Deadshot's way?
I can totally buff Deadshot. Since this is a home adjusted Gunslinger anyways, we are totally open to changes. Maybe give it natural bonus damage based on level... or something. Maybe I can let the gunslinger add their wisdom modifier X2 to the damage of a Deadshot attack. Personally, it feels like we are stretching everything to get at this "cannon" concept (good description Adam). I might give the gunslinger some other magic enhancements. Maybe I can allow him to get enhancement bonuses for less money, since most of our campaigns are low level he'll be getting them early that way. I'll run some ideas around and see where we land. Thanks for the help!
The double hackbut reinforces the cannon concept as well, the required set up and the extreme damage is so fitting. Vital strike works well, so it seems there is already some basis for the idea.
Buffing deadshot would make also make it good too, would it be 2x Wis per hit or... also perhaps spending more grit for more damage as well, along with the increased grit pool suggested earlier.