I've noticed that one of my Pathfinder games (going through Shattered Star) feels very poor, while my group going through Rise of Runelords feels very rich in comparison.
In SS we've only been able to purchase small items and rely heavily on items dropped from our enemies to survive. Our weapons and armour are pretty much what we've owned since level 4, now at level 8 we are taking huge amounts of punishment because the highest normal AC is 23 (we get plenty of item drops) that we tend to keep and very little liquid treasure.
In my RotRL run we've been receiving heaps and heaps of liquid treasure and occasionally magic items that tend to be sold more than kept. Most of the players go out shopping for their items of choice and nearly every player has 20+ AC at level 4 already. The general consensus in the group is they all feel well off.
I sat down and nutted out the maths and both groups are actually fairly close to their recommended wealth balance levels. The only real difference between the two campaigns is one group keeps drops, while the other sells them.
Do you find it more satisfying to purchase your own items or find them?
It depends on the group I'm with and the campaign. Sometimes finding is better, other times crafting.
Purchasing/crafting, with few exceptions.
The problem with keeping your drops is that for every "Oh this item is pretty cool, I didn't even know this existed!" there's 15 "Well this +1 sword can go in the pile of other +1 shit nobody wants to use I guess".
Depends on what satisfies you. <Duh!>
Most of the drops are not useful. Last month we fought a bunch of evil fey and ended up with a a zillion Tiny suits of leather armor. Who's going to use Tiny armor? We also have a pack mule that we use to carry all the arrows we've looted from various groups at ten arrows per mook. At this point, the mule looks like a hedgehog and has acquired the name "Sonic."
If this trash gets counted as part of our WBL, then we're certainly going to feel poor.
That said, being poor can make adventuring more satisfying, because you're succeeding by your own efforts and not through simply throwing money at the problem. it also encourages creativity because, well, I don't have the perfect solution, but maybe i can MacGyver something up out of normal-sized arrows and Tiny leather armor, and that will be satisfying when we can pull that off....
Evolving Weapon with a narrative drop now and then. Never been a big fan of a magical piece of gear you needed on every street corner, but not a big fan of getting drops you didn't want either. Definitely not a big fan of replacing my gear every week. 3rd edition and its cousins aren't the best of friends with my preferences probably.
Crafting is by far my favorite. I mean really it is no contest, I get to give the item exactly the stuff I want on it and custom design it's appearance.
Drops are my next favorite since if I am keeping it then it probably is close to what I want.
Purchasing is my least favorite. Putting up with random availability, lengthy NPC crafting wait lists, and dealing with backstabbing GMs who think it's fun to mess with your purchases is just annoying.
Depends on how the story develops around the items. Did we recover the mystic thingamajig from the King Watzhiznutz and are able to finish the ritual of the Great Conjuction Junction? DId Clangs McForgealot, mighty dwarven warrior, make his own hammer with the bones of the iron dragon and the tears of 100 weeping goblins he personally made widows? Either can be pretty interesting.
Finding something well fitted for your character can feel pretty awesome, but ideally not when part of a random treasure drop. Making something can feel pretty awesome too, but not when it's just a case of routine number crunching. Make a story out of either and I'm reasonably content.
Unless a dropped item has a name and history to it, or was wielded by a particularly memorable foe, then I'd prefer crafting. When your character crafts an item it's an accomplishment all its own. Feels good to wade into battle with a weapon you've personally crafted. Many characters are gonna trust their own steel more than another smith's, to boot.
Now, MrSin's comment about evolving weapons is intriguing. A "legendary" item that scales with you is probably cooler than any other weapon you're likely to come across in a campaign.
It's not so much a matter of how I get it, it's what I get.
I guess I'd rather find what I need, but if the DM is using the traditional Diablo Random Loot tables, I'm happy to liquidate the junk and buy what I need. I'm earning it either way; buying it just involves the extra step of searching the magical items chapter.
I love crafting, but I have refrained to do so in my recent stint as a player because I have noticed that other people's eyes glaze over whenever I start saying "i want to craft..."
Your DM won't let you craft via email, between sessions? I'd think that keeping it off-camera would make everyone happy, no?
Personally I like finding items, figuring out what they do and how they could be useful. Crafting or buying items tends to eliminate the thrill of discovery for me. Ymmv of course.
I don't get to play much. Being the chronic GM I find it more fun on my side of the table when players craft versus shopping. I frankly dislike handing out magic/mundane items because no matter how amazing I describe the item its still a potion of Enlarge Person, a wand of Fireball or a +2 greataxe.
Crafting at least means my players are genuinely interested in what their character has and they feel dialed into the world the PC inhabits. A +1 longsword I give them or they buy is just a +1 longsword. The +1 longsword made from the bone of the young green dragon they defeated, wrapped in the beast's skin and marked on the hilt-guard with an etching of the dragon's bust, with a blade forged in a furnace heated with their own magic and etched with distilled acidic dragon spittle; now that's THEIR +1 longsword.
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It's not so much a matter of how I get it, it's what I get.
I guess I'd rather find what I need, but if the DM is using the traditional Diablo Random Loot tables, I'm happy to liquidate the junk and buy what I need. I'm earning it either way; buying it just involves the extra step of searching the magical items chapter.
I love crafting, but I have refrained to do so in my recent stint as a player because I have noticed that other people's eyes glaze over whenever I start saying "i want to craft..."Your DM won't let you craft via email, between sessions? I'd think that keeping it off-camera would make everyone happy, no?
Honestly, we never even thought about doing it like that. Thanks :D
Although, we very rarely finish the session in town. Mostly it's in the middle of wilderness or in a dungeon.
If given the chance, I like buying my own equipment, customized to my character's needs.
However, one of my all-time favorite things is to find that one, super cool, awesome piece of treasure that you just didn't see coming. Maybe it's an artifact, a weapon wielded at one time by a god, etc. Just something awesome you can't typically pick up in ye' olde item shoppe.
dot. This thread (which I started) is possibly of interest re: this topic.
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I don't get to play much. Being the chronic GM I find it more fun on my side of the table when players craft versus shopping. I frankly dislike handing out magic/mundane items because no matter how amazing I describe the item its still a potion of Enlarge Person, a wand of Fireball or a +2 greataxe.
Crafting at least means my players are genuinely interested in what their character has and they feel dialed into the world the PC inhabits. A +1 longsword I give them or they buy is just a +1 longsword. The +1 longsword made from the bone of the young green dragon they defeated, wrapped in the beast's skin and marked on the hilt-guard with an etching of the dragon's bust, with a blade forged in a furnace heated with their own magic and etched with distilled acidic dragon spittle; now that's THEIR +1 longsword.
Yeah, but the +1 longsword they spent 1000gp on generic materials for and a week and a couple of rolls crafting isn't anymore special than the one they bought at the magic mart for 2000gp.
It's all in the presentation.
And even with the good presentation, they're still going to trade up for a better one in a couple of levels. Even if it's THEIR +1 longsword. They'll still need an upgrade.
And that is IMO the problem with the game. Because a character NEEDS to ditch an item for a more powerful version. Or upgrade it. Never seen people do it in novels that are worth mentioning.
I don't get to play much. Being the chronic GM I find it more fun on my side of the table when players craft versus shopping. I frankly dislike handing out magic/mundane items because no matter how amazing I describe the item its still a potion of Enlarge Person, a wand of Fireball or a +2 greataxe.
Crafting at least means my players are genuinely interested in what their character has and they feel dialed into the world the PC inhabits. A +1 longsword I give them or they buy is just a +1 longsword. The +1 longsword made from the bone of the young green dragon they defeated, wrapped in the beast's skin and marked on the hilt-guard with an etching of the dragon's bust, with a blade forged in a furnace heated with their own magic and etched with distilled acidic dragon spittle; now that's THEIR +1 longsword.
Yeah, but the +1 longsword they spent 1000gp on generic materials for and a week and a couple of rolls crafting isn't anymore special than the one they bought at the magic mart for 2000gp.
It's all in the presentation.
And even with the good presentation, they're still going to trade up for a better one in a couple of levels. Even if it's THEIR +1 longsword. They'll still need an upgrade.
Yes, and no. Instead of trading it up, they could always just have it upgraded, thereby keeping the original item?
Satisfaction I think is tied into the effort needed to make an item yours. If your GM just says, "sure, craft that staff of power," and 7 months of game time pass with one skill check, it's just not as much fun for many people as wresting it from the hands of your childhood nemesis. On the other hand, sometimes it's great to spend three game months to forge that perfect holy avenger as your campaign against the armies of evil bogs down in the winter, just to reveal it to your enemy antipaladin general and say, "let's try this on more equal terms".
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And that is IMO the problem with the game. Because a character NEEDS to ditch an item for a more powerful version. Or upgrade it. Never seen people do it in novels that are worth mentioning.I don't get to play much. Being the chronic GM I find it more fun on my side of the table when players craft versus shopping. I frankly dislike handing out magic/mundane items because no matter how amazing I describe the item its still a potion of Enlarge Person, a wand of Fireball or a +2 greataxe.
Crafting at least means my players are genuinely interested in what their character has and they feel dialed into the world the PC inhabits. A +1 longsword I give them or they buy is just a +1 longsword. The +1 longsword made from the bone of the young green dragon they defeated, wrapped in the beast's skin and marked on the hilt-guard with an etching of the dragon's bust, with a blade forged in a furnace heated with their own magic and etched with distilled acidic dragon spittle; now that's THEIR +1 longsword.
Yeah, but the +1 longsword they spent 1000gp on generic materials for and a week and a couple of rolls crafting isn't anymore special than the one they bought at the magic mart for 2000gp.
It's all in the presentation.
And even with the good presentation, they're still going to trade up for a better one in a couple of levels. Even if it's THEIR +1 longsword. They'll still need an upgrade.
I don't know about that. If it's good enough for Megaman, it's good enough for me!
Who's to say Excalibur didn't start out masterwork and end up as +5 keen feybane?
You're all correct. On the one hand its all about presentation and by RAW the items will need an upgrade. On the other hand they might just upgrade their OWN stuff, but then they might just ditch it and buy/upgrade bought/found stuff too.
Bottom line the players will decide.
For ME, I like crafting. Also from my experience it appears my players have a more personal experience when crafting. Are there flaws? Sure. Do they still do it? Yes. Is it right for everyone? No.
I don't have a problem with the X-mas tree effect and factoring items and WBL into higher level play and all that. My players don't either; most of them come from MMORPGs or board games so to them upgrading and items are second nature. Then again, I've never had the fortune of playing in an E6 or E8 game. I've also never been able to play in a genuinely low-magic campaign, so I don't know if either of those options would change my opinion.
Whatever; question asked, preferences given, so question answered.
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I could have sworn I posted to this when it was first brought up but unless I'm blind, I didn't. So:
Well, like others--ultimately, I want what's most useful. If dropped gear isn't ultimately useful, then I will prefer to craft.
BUT...
I have to say, when I think about my favorite items that have come into my PCs' possession were all, effectively, drops. Whether it was the random magic Swiss army knife my treasure hunter found (they may not be Superstar, but I loved that thing), or the gift my cleric's church gave to her of a holy quarterstaff, it was all GM-given.
I like the surprise of it. I like things I wouldn't THINK I wanted or needed, but when I get them, I can't imagine my character without them. Oftentimes what I plan for my character is nowhere near as FUN as what I find for them.
BUT the key here is the GM making the effort to include treasure in the game that is either designed specifically for the PCs, or otherwise just so NEAT you wouldn't want to do without it.
Whenever we've just ended up with random treasure nobody could really use, that's disappointing. The same staff wielding cleric was once handed a mace of disruption. "Use that, you're the cleric." "Well, but I use a staff. I have weapon specialization in it. The mace'll be good versus undead but otherwise I do more damage with the staff." (Fighter/cleric. Also, different edition.) It feels disappointing when the stuff you find isn't something you're not sure you can find a use for, or doesn't have interesting flavor to it.
So compared to random stuff I can't use, I'd rather craft it. But there are very few items I felt excited about crafting. I think the only thing I ever did get excited about crafting was... well, actually same cleric, they killed a dragon and she harvested scales to make armor with. But what was exciting about that was the story of the defeat of the dragon as part of that. If I had just decided "I want to make +2 red dragonhide etc." just because I felt that was what was useful, I would have been nowhere near as excited about it. I was excited about crafting it because it was something my character had earned and it was fun.
The root of it is I guess is I want a story out of it. And for it to be useful. I guess I'm high maintenance.
So rather than drops vs crafted...
I would say well designed drops > crafted and pertinent to story > crafted because practical > random drop that isn't interesting or useful.
I guess even with all this I'm in the minority. I get really excited about the treasure I write up for my parties and think I've done a good job coming up with stuff everyone can use and will want to and then two-thirds of the time they sell/trade it all anyway. I guess I have to get better at that and/or accept some people just want to go to the magic mart/magic crafter's guild.
Personally I really love the things I buy, because it's always exactly what I want. Often I have to find and sell heaps of lesser items to build up the cash to afford the thing and often it involves plenty of adventuring to reach that goal.
With drops it's a random(?) small chance it'll be something I want and that's even worse if I have a build in mind.
If I have an idea for a build (scythe wielding crit hitter) holding out for a scythe could be an abysmal wait, the satisfaction of buying an item then upgrading it over time (even if it's incredibly expensive) really builds a bond with the item.
Additionally I'll never take a proficiency/focus on a weapon unless I knew I could buy it, I would NEVER take a proficiency/focus for something I had to actually find first.
I think one of the biggest tells about value is how often people remember special abilities/properties of items they've picked up. People never forget item properties of things they've purchased but the amount of times players forget about their freebies is detrimentally staggering.
I think one of the biggest tells about value is how often people remember special abilities/properties of items they've picked up. People never forget item properties of things they've purchased but the amount of times players forget about their freebies is detrimentally staggering.
The only time I've seen that are from the kind of players who generally just don't bother to learn shit about anything to do with their characters. It's no more difficult to write the properties of an item you find on your character sheet than your class abilities, the people who fail to do the former also tend to fail to do the latter.
I have to admit some of the most memorable items have been drops... BUT those were often once in a campaign; like when my barbarian looted the elemental sword of earth from a tomb, when my paladin archer found a special bow that fired shafts of holy light, or when my mage discovered a stone of natural sunlight. Considering these cool drops are once in a campaign and my crafted cool items (like my infamous magic vanity mirror, my nightscale boots of mobility, or the clockwork staff) are made by me for me and have exactly the back story and flavor I want when I want them then I have to stick with crafting as more satisfying.
Finding it via adventuring seems to hint that you legitimately acquire that item rather than buying it. Buying it seems like cheating.
Compromise between buying and drops: building your own.
And lo, Krod didst acquire the 7 drops of moonlight, an ingot of Vileiron from the Sodden Lands and on the eve of the new moon alighted upon Valuk's Crag to enact the Blessing of the Night's Widow. Now his black blade of Midnight doth bring icing death to all it strikes.
+1 Cold Longsword.
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Out of a sense of completion I feel it would be amusing to present the third option as well:
After a grueling day of travel with nothing better than trail rations to sustain him Krod Mandoon did mightily lay siege to the 10'x10' room guarded by a pair of savage level 1 orcs to lay claim to the treasure box contained therein. Thus goes the tale of how Krod attained the legendary +1 blade of the murder hobo.