So, I'm quite fond of PrCs because of the combination of weird flavor & mechanics they sometimes bring. However, the general concensus in pathfinder seems to be that they are awful. Heck, that's the main reason the "early entry" clause was added to PfS (IE, a SLA can qualify you for a PrC).
I dont like early entry. In my mind, the spellcasting requirement to many PrCs represents a gaining of skill & practice in your respective discipline, and SLAs dont represent that for me. However, I still want to find a way to encourage people into PrCs, and hopefully make them less "awful". I'm looking for ideas on how to do so.
1) Any PrC can be refluffed: this is an obvious one. You like the mechanics of the "living monolith", but your a dwarf, and not in golarion? Great, we'll call it a "Stone Guardian", replace the "ka stone" with a holy rune on your forehead, and switch the sphinx summoning for something else.
2) Fractional BaB/Saves: Basically, you no longer just "add the tables together"; each level in a 3/4 bab class gives you 3/4 bab, etc.. which you sum up and round down to determine your current bab. The same can be done for saves (at 2/3 per level for good, 1/3 per level for bad)
3) Easing requirements: The "fluff" requirements can easily be waived, but how about feats? (I'm not considering skill points to be a huge constraint). Does the shadowdancer really need mobility? There are many cases where the feats required dont really match the requirements of the class.
4) COntinuation of certain class features; a lot of class features dont continue in PrCs, like the advancement of a wizard's familiar, the power of judgments & smite, and others. Certain of these COULD be continued in a way that did not affect the game too much (in the way 3.5 PrCs supposedly did) but I'm afraid of going back to making PrCs essential with this change, so Im unsure of it.
These are 4 ideas I've had up to now. My ultimate goal is to make the choice between a PrC and strait class an "equal choice" power-wise. Can it be done?
Shameless bump
5) drop the concept of favored class, make favored class bonuses apply regardless of class for PCs and specific NPCs. effectively making every class or hit die favored for PCs, Rivals and Boss foes. but Denying the privelege to mooks.
Not a bad idea umbriere. Though I do wonder how to modrate that for "nonstandard" favored class bonuses. Maybe you choose one "favored class" (for wich you can have the "special" fave class bonus) and for everything else you can only choose HP/skill point.
Ok, so here are a few basic things I think could help the PrCs, without making them overpowered:
Continuations:
Familiar (and NOT animal companion):
Loremaster, Magambyan arcanist, mystic theurge, arcane savant, pathfinder delver, bloodmage, Cyphermage, Daivrat, Harrower, Mage of the third eye, Master of storms, Riftwarden, Spherewalker, tattooed mystic, veiled illusionist;
Rogue talents (IE, level in rogue & PrC stack to qualify for rogue talents & advanced rogue talents):
Assassin, Coastal Pirate, Deep Sea Pirate, Crimson assassin, Group leader, guild agent, guild poisoner, Master spy, Sleepless detective;
Monk AC bonus:
Brother of the seal;
Inquisitor judgements (levels & uses per day, but not the ability to “stack” judgments):
Grand marshal, Dissident of dawn, GrayWarden;
Tactician (uses per day, and not bonus feats):
Golden legionnaire;
Revelations (exclusively for qualifying for revelations through “extra revelations”):
Rage prophet;
Improvements:
Shadowdancer: tie SLA caster level to character level instead of class level
Horizon walker: I’m tempted to allow either 7/10 caster levels (divine) OR a continued animal companion; Not sure if either is too much;
Arcane archer: changing the capstone abilities DC from 20+Cha to 20+caster stat (Int or Cha).
So, would these changes tip the balance too far towards the PrCs? My goal is alway to make them a more or less "equal" choice, if not an equivalent one.
Another shameless bump. Really want to know what others tihnk of this.
Some I have used in my campaigns:
1) PrC are a favored class for guildmembers/certain races/Faiths etc.
2) PrC levels add prestige in a guild so you get a reputation bonus in regard to the benefits a Guild/Faith/Organisation offers.
3) Combine fractional BAB and save bonuses.
4) I also count non-casting levels as 1/2 CL for spellcasting variables etc, and stack CL from different spellcasting classes together.
*Last one is not only for PrC but it does make it easier to multi-class or enter a PrC in some cases.
Some ideas are good annoying orange (especially 1&2) but I might have to ask a feat from players for # 4, since that does cross into the territory I'd like to avoid (IE making multiclassing TOO attractive. Thanks for the input.
Some ideas are good annoying orange (especially 1&2) but I might have to ask a feat from players for # 4, since that does cross into the territory I'd like to avoid (IE making multiclassing TOO attractive. Thanks for the input.
there is a difference between caster level and spells per day/spells known
Oh, yeah, I handt understood it that way. Not a bad idea; wouldnt give you too much power, but would allow you to best use the power you have.
Oh, yeah, I handt understood it that way. Not a bad idea; wouldnt give you too much power, but would allow you to best use the power you have.
it wouldn't give you extra spells per day or spells known, but it would make the spells you can cast, a bit stronger. it adds a bit of oomph to eldritch knights and arcane tricksters. but not much
Sorry I don't have anything good to say, but what does SLA mean? *blushes*
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Sorry I don't have anything good to say, but what does SLA mean? *blushes*
Service Level Agreement. Uh, also, "spell-like ability." :)
I've been spending too much time here... I've automatically begun converting spell like ability to SLA, exotic weapon proficiency to EWP, etc... Sad.
Not a bad idea umbriere. Though I do wonder how to modrate that for "nonstandard" favored class bonuses. Maybe you choose one "favored class" (for wich you can have the "special" fave class bonus) and for everything else you can only choose HP/skill point.
If they were overpowered to take while multiclassing they were overpowered in the first place.
Anyways, you might consider giving bonuses to certain skill instead of making them requirements. Make it so the PrC makes the PC better at what the PrC is supposed to do instead of narrowing their options. Coupled with easing requirements and giving some more scaling I think PrCs would work out much better.
Any specific ideas MrSin? A great many already have skill bonuses (IE, +1/2 class level on craft (basketweaving)). I definitly think some light scaling is in order, but I want to do it in such a fashion that it doesnt overshadow the "main class", and I just dont have enough experience to really evaluate this.
Any specific ideas MrSin? A great many already have skill bonuses (IE, +1/2 class level on craft (basketweaving)). I definitly think some light scaling is in order, but I want to do it in such a fashion that it doesnt overshadow the "main class", and I just dont have enough experience to really evaluate this.
Instead of 5 ranks in x give 1 rank per 3 or 4 levels or give +2 to two stats on entry. Likely that wouldn't break the game. So you become an arcane trickster, and you get 1 rank at levels 1/4/8 or 3/6/9, or you just get a +2 bonus to bluff and stealth when you enter. Instead of requiring someone to invest 5 ranks in four skills, they got a small bonus so they were better at who they were trying to be. This design is more about rewarding than forcing someone to be who the flavor was written for, allowing a wider variety of players/concepts to enter the PrC and making them feel better for entering while also making the PrC more attractive and beneficial in a not overpowering way.
1/2 is a bit much imo. It also tends to be loaded into a few things. Spreading out a few bonuses would be more beneficial if you want to give that many ranks. 1 rank that's blown up is more potentially gamebreaking than several spread out, depending on the skill.
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Fractional BAB and Saves: Yes! I don't know why these aren't the default rules, really.
My rule for PrCs: All entry requirements are waived, with two exceptions.
- Each PrC has a minimum entry level, decided by me, that cannot be bypassed by any means. In most cases, this is equal to the number of skill ranks required by the class (for 3.5 classes, the number of skill ranks required -3). However, exceptions can occur when a PrC's main barrier to entry is a high BAB or spellcasting requirement, and not its skill rank requirements.
- Class features that are meaningfully advanced or otherwise utilized by the PrC are still required: To enter a class that advances spellcasting, you obviously need spellcasting to be advanced.
The only potential problem with this rule is that many PrCs are "balanced" by requiring you to take completely worthless feats in exchange for class features better than what you'd get from the logical entry base class. In practice, I don't think this is an issue.
First, I'm of the school of thought that the only type of balance that matters is the intra-party balance between player characters. As far as balance is concerned, it doesn't matter how powerful the PCs are (as the DM can just step up the obstacles to match), so long as we don't have an Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit situation.
Second, this actually helps out the lower-tier classes more than the higher-tier classes, because they can benefit much more from PrCs and multiclassing in general. Also, PrCs intended for fighters and rogues tend to have much, much harsher requirements than those intended for wizards and clerics.
Third, the seriously overpowered PrCs (like Incantatrix, Emissary of Barachiel, Rainbow Servant + Dread Necromancer) are just as disruptive with this rule as they are without. If a PrC lets you break the game in half, then it's worth entering no matter how crap the requirements are.
As for PrC levels stacking with class levels for class features... I dunno. There are a few things where it'd be fine (familiar level, channel energy dice) but that's only because these features are so minor as to not matter anyway.
I find the Paizo version of Dragon Disciple is a pretty decent PrC because it allows the bloodline abilities of the sorcerer class continue to accumulate as the DD levels. The problem with most PRCs is that they tend to drop most class features, and Paizo added a bunch of class features to each class that makes them much more interesting.
For example, if the mystic theurge allowed you to count each theurge level as ONE of your two spellcasting classes for the purposes of class abilities (such as bloodlines, domains, school powers, etc.), it would be way better.
Peet
Sorry I don't have anything good to say, but what does SLA mean? *blushes*Service Level Agreement. Uh, also, "spell-like ability." :)
Thank you! xD
Nice to see your comment Craft Cheese, you seem to be (relatively?) new to the forums and I've seen you have some good insight on other threads as well.
Firstly, I want to stick to paizo PrCs, or 3.5 PrCs that are so close to paizo PrCs as to not make a difference (Example: Eldritch Kinght=Knight Phantom, just about).
As to the requirements, I have no problems waiving the feat requirements in most cases, unless they are "necessary" (Example: the red mantis assassin needs EWP (sawtooth blade) & weapon focus (sawtooth blade) at least).
As for skill requirements, I dont have too many problems in leaving them there, first to "establish" the level requirements & to diversify the party (the amount of times somebody with knowledge (history) would have been useful and no on had it...). Might reduce the number of skills needed on a case by case basis (for example: a fighter that wants to become an aspis agent).
As for class features, we can at least make a list of those that "dont matter anyway", so as to contrast them with those that do. The recent playtest showed it is damnably hard to "balance" class features, so I've got some work ahead of me.