It doesn't take any optimization to survive a really high jump. You just need to be high enough level to have the hitpoints needed and get someone to cast a few low level spells on you.
I'm not talking about high jumps, I'm talking about re entering earth's atmosphere. Sorry, I was not being clear, I should have been more specific.
That just takes enough hitpoints and the right selection of spells and items. Again, not much in the way of optimizing.
It doesn't take any optimization to survive a really high jump. You just need to be high enough level to have the hitpoints needed and get someone to cast a few low level spells on you.I'm not talking about high jumps, I'm talking about re entering earth's atmosphere. Sorry, I was not being clear, I should have been more specific.
Eh. Only requires three magical items and a barbarian of sufficient level. And all three magic items are in the core rule book and not that expensive.
Seriously, though, your players have never done things like this? You've missed out on all kinds of creative solutions. And the fun of demonstrating that the bad guys can learn from example...
In case anyone cares, JJ answered my follow-up as well.
I think this really does satisfy everyone, IMO. Your 5 Cha character can be beautiful...it's just nobody gives a s$*$ because she's so dirty, rude, devoid of social graces, shy, whatever that nobody cares.Correct. High Charisma certainly DRAMATICALLY increases the chances of a character being memorable in appearance (be that beauty or hideousness), but doesn't preclude something like the stereotyped "airhead" who's super beautiful but devoid of personality, or the village idiot who is super ugly but not particularly memorable because of a lack of significant personality. (Note that you CAN have an "airhead" or "village idiot" who DOES have a strong personalty!)
Sweet, thanks for the answer. I like this interpretation, if I'm reading this right. Cha determines your appearance, but not necessarily your attractiveness? Just how striking, memorable, "Wow factor"-y it is, whether it's anything special on its own or not?
I can certainly see some sort of “Ugly Betty” thing going one, sure, but adding in dirty & smelly. Not sure if I’d buy a 5= “beautiful” but yes, I can certainly see a wide range there. Let’s take the normal human low stat of 8 and adding in a “Ugly Betty” along with personal hygiene issues AND a bad personality? But she’s really a 16 under all that? Could work.
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I can certainly see some sort of “Ugly Betty” thing going one, sure, but adding in dirty & smelly. Not sure if I’d buy a 5= “beautiful” but yes, I can certainly see a wide range there. Let’s take the normal human low stat of 8 and adding in a “Ugly Betty” along with personal hygiene issues AND a bad personality? But she’s really a 16 under all that? Could work.In case anyone cares, JJ answered my follow-up as well.
I think this really does satisfy everyone, IMO. Your 5 Cha character can be beautiful...it's just nobody gives a s$*$ because she's so dirty, rude, devoid of social graces, shy, whatever that nobody cares.Correct. High Charisma certainly DRAMATICALLY increases the chances of a character being memorable in appearance (be that beauty or hideousness), but doesn't preclude something like the stereotyped "airhead" who's super beautiful but devoid of personality, or the village idiot who is super ugly but not particularly memorable because of a lack of significant personality. (Note that you CAN have an "airhead" or "village idiot" who DOES have a strong personalty!)
Sweet, thanks for the answer. I like this interpretation, if I'm reading this right. Cha determines your appearance, but not necessarily your attractiveness? Just how striking, memorable, "Wow factor"-y it is, whether it's anything special on its own or not?
Osha from GOT. She is beautiful (as much as Natalia Tena is beautiful), and very very nicely shaped indeed. But she is dirty, crass and very ill mannered. Low cha high hotness indeed.
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Osha from GOT. She is beautiful (as much as Natalia Tena is beautiful), and very very nicely shaped indeed. But she is dirty, crass and very ill mannered. Low cha high hotness indeed.
I can certainly see some sort of “Ugly Betty” thing going one, sure, but adding in dirty & smelly. Not sure if I’d buy a 5= “beautiful” but yes, I can certainly see a wide range there. Let’s take the normal human low stat of 8 and adding in a “Ugly Betty” along with personal hygiene issues AND a bad personality? But she’s really a 16 under all that? Could work.
Except that she has LOTS of personality. Not to mention personal magnetism & ability to lead. True, she does cover up her looks with dirty and poor manners, but I would not call her "low CHA" by any means.
Charisma is in the eye of the beholder.
Charisma is in the eye of the beholder.
15 charisma, to be exact.
This beholder is so happy to have 15 charisma. (Actually, 25 charisma. She's a variant beholder from Lords of Madness.)
Charisma is in the eye of the beholder.15 charisma, to be exact.
This beholder is so happy to have 15 charisma. (Actually, 25 charisma. She's a variant beholder from Lords of Madness.)
Pfft, you beat me to mentioning that with an edit.
She must have such lovely eyes. Wouldn't take too close of a look though.
She must have such lovely eyes. Wouldn't take too close of a look though.
Depending on the eye, maybe, maybe not. If you get the flesh to stone or disintegrate eye, then yeah, that was a bad idea. But if you get the charm person or charm monster eye, then you'll probably be really happy you looked in her eyes!
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Charisma is in the eye of the beholder.
To other beholders, the 15 CHA is likely quite a "looker".
She must have such lovely eyes. Wouldn't take too close of a look though.Depending on the eye, maybe, maybe not. If you get the flesh to stone or disintegrate eye, then yeah, that was a bad idea. But if you get the charm person or charm monster eye, then you'll probably be really happy you looked in her eyes!
"Your the most beautiful tyrant I've ever seen..." is a pickup line you don't hear very often.
Charisma is in the eye of the beholder.To other beholders, the 15 CHA is likely quite a "looker".
Oddly enough that 15 charisma affects everyone the same though. 15 is as low as they go though, the underwater crab/beholder variant is just as pretty apparently. The one without any eyes at all has 22, and that things downright disturbing and looks closer related to a gibbering mouther imo.
To other beholders, the 15 CHA is likely quite a "looker".
15 Cha is standard for beholders. Do all beholders find each other really attractive? That's very far from what the fluff in Lords of Madness which says a beholder's reaction at seeing another beholder is to become enraged and attempt to kill the other beholder.
What about creatures that have low charisma? Do all dimetrodons (Cha 3) find each other repulsive?
To other beholders, the 15 CHA is likely quite a "looker".15 Cha is standard for beholders. Do all beholders find each other really attractive? That's very far from what the fluff in Lords of Madness which says a beholder's reaction at seeing another beholder is to become enraged and attempt to kill the other beholder.
What about creatures that have low charisma? Do all dimetrodons (Cha 3) find each other repulsive?
The rage is jealousy over how good the other beholder looks.
I leave, then come back to a few days later to 10+ page on the topic of prettiness.
What the...
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I leave, then come back to a few days later to 10+ page on the topic of prettiness.
What the...
We also spent a couple pages talking about using barbarians as orbital weapons.
The more I play, the more I hate the feeling as if I have to optimize my characters. If I don't, I question whether or not I'm really contributing to the group. If I force myself not to, I get questions like "that's all?" when I mention a save DC or get frustrated because I can't land attacks or my spells get saved against often. It's infuriating and deflating, honestly. When I do it, and I can do it well, my characters are capable but often shallow in build.
Does anyone else feel the same? Is there a balance between the worlds?
I'm not the Thread Police or anything but this "discussion", such as it is, has ranged pretty far off topic.
If any of you actually play a game where people surviving a fall from orbit becomes a legitimate concern for the balance of your game, do let me know.
Buri: People who make you feel like you're not contributing enough to the group to play a [non-competitive] game are not your friends. It's not a problem specific to this game, either (cf. WoW raiding).
The more I play, the more I hate the feeling as if I have to optimize my characters. If I don't, I question whether or not I'm really contributing to the group. If I force myself not to, I get questions like "that's all?" when I mention a save DC or get frustrated because I can't land attacks or my spells get saved against often. It's infuriating and deflating, honestly. When I do it, and I can do it well, my characters are capable but often shallow in build.
Does anyone else feel the same? Is there a balance between the worlds?
I'm not the Thread Police or anything but this "discussion", such as it is, has ranged pretty far off topic.
If any of you actually play a game where people surviving a fall from orbit becomes a legitimate concern for the balance of your game, do let me know.
Buri: People who make you feel like you're not contributing enough to the group to play a [non-competitive] game are not your friends. It's not a problem specific to this game, either (cf. WoW raiding).
I've played three of them. In one of those instances, my character was the one trying to survive.
I've also played in games where the weight limit of how much a heavy catapult can launch was a serious concern to the balance of the game. Mainly, we needed to know how many members of the party it could launch past the enemy defenses.
And then there was the issue of if a Transmute Water to Wine spell would be balanced... especially since we were openly trying to design the spell as part of a plan to get an aboleth drunk so we could interrogate it for information. The fish had been hard enough to capture and no one wanted to risk talking to it sober just in case it had another trick to pull on us.
I have to agree with you on your statement to Buri. Honestly, it's been the characters who were not optimized that were the most fun. That didn't stop us from trying to optimize ourselves in a way that would allow us to pull zany stunts, though.
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What's really fun is when a DM is loose enough to let you fall from orbit, but common sensical enough that whatever you land on will take the same damage you do. Then you can get a spellcaster to warp your barbarian into the sky, declare charge, and utterly decimate the unfortunate victim. You could make even nastier use of that with a two-handed fighter.
If any of you actually play a game where people surviving a fall from orbit becomes a legitimate concern for the balance of your game, do let me know.
After seeing how some people view the game, it would not surprise me if this was the case. Falling from orbit, people taking lava or acid baths and then walking out unscathed because they have enough hit points, etc.
If any of you actually play a game where people surviving a fall from orbit becomes a legitimate concern for the balance of your game, do let me know.After seeing how some people view the game, it would not surprise me if this was the case. Falling from orbit, people taking lava or acid baths and then walking out unscathed because they have enough hit points, etc.
Yup had this happen before too. Also had to deal with a guy who was pissed because his "clever" plan to increase his save against a white dragons breath weapon by wearing many layers of clothing underneath a doubly thick winter coat did not work.
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Well you all sure showed me. Lots of games where falling from orbit is a common daily, or hourly, occurence, and rules need to be adjusted accordingly. Don't I feel the fool. Please continue your thread derail for several more pages, with my blessing.
Yup had this happen before too. Also had to deal with a guy who was pissed because his "clever" plan to increase his save against a white dragons breath weapon by wearing many layers of clothing underneath a doubly thick winter coat did not work.If any of you actually play a game where people surviving a fall from orbit becomes a legitimate concern for the balance of your game, do let me know.After seeing how some people view the game, it would not surprise me if this was the case. Falling from orbit, people taking lava or acid baths and then walking out unscathed because they have enough hit points, etc.
You seem to like to have it both ways.
"I don't like the rules. It doesn't make sense that a character can survive swimming in lava. You die anyway."
"It makes sense that wearing lots of clothes protects you from the cold, but I don't like it. Doesn't work."
Well you all sure showed me. Lots of games where falling from orbit is a common daily, or hourly, occurence, and rules need to be adjusted accordingly. Don't I feel the fool. Please continue your thread derail for several more pages, with my blessing.
Nobody has said the rules need to be adjusted, as far as I can tell, or even that this is a common occurrence. Just that it's possible. Unknot your panties.
The discussion has naturally progressed to this point after a bunch of shifts. The original topic was talked to death, so we moved on to tangents. This is how forums work.
Yup had this happen before too. Also had to deal with a guy who was pissed because his "clever" plan to increase his save against a white dragons breath weapon by wearing many layers of clothing underneath a doubly thick winter coat did not work.If any of you actually play a game where people surviving a fall from orbit becomes a legitimate concern for the balance of your game, do let me know.After seeing how some people view the game, it would not surprise me if this was the case. Falling from orbit, people taking lava or acid baths and then walking out unscathed because they have enough hit points, etc.You seem to like to have it both ways.
"I don't like the rules. It doesn't make sense that a character can survive swimming in lava. You die anyway."
"It makes senayse that wearing lots of clothes protects you from the cold, but I don't like it. Doesn't work."
Well you all sure showed me. Lots of games where falling from orbit is a common daily, or hourly, occurence, and rules need to be adjusted accordingly. Don't I feel the fool. Please continue your thread derail for several more pages, with my blessing.Nobody has said the rules need to be adjusted, as far as I can tell, or even that this is a common occurrence. Just that it's possible. Unknot your panties.
The discussion has naturally progressed to this point after a bunch of shifts. The original topic was talked to death, so we moved on to tangents. This is how forums work.
So you think an extra long Dr who scarf with thermal underwear and a thick winter coat should equal a +10 bonus on all saves vs magical cold and breath weapons? That's what the player was demanding and got upset when he was told no.
So you think an extra long Dr who scarf with thermal underwear and a thick winter coat should equal a +10 bonus on all saves vs magical cold and breath weapons? That's what the player was demanding and got upset when he was told no.
I don't, but I generally don't allow stuff like that (bonuses to stuff or new things "because it makes sense". Lost a player over that once.) anyway unless it would be really cool (and thermal underwear is quite warm).
But that's not what you said anyway. You just said "increase his save". If you want to run your game by logic, go whole hog, give him a +1 or 2. If you want to enforce what you see as logical drawbacks of reality, you need to enforce the benefits as well or you look a mite hypocritical.
So you think an extra long Dr who scarf with thermal underwear and a thick winter coat should equal a +10 bonus on all saves vs magical cold and breath weapons? That's what the player was demanding and got upset when he was told no.I don't, but I generally don't allow stuff like that (bonuses to stuff or new things "because it makes sense". Lost a player over that once.) anyway unless it would be really cool (and thermal underwear is quite warm).
But that's not what you said anyway. You just said "increase his save". If you want to run your game by logic, go whole hog, give him a +1 or 2. If you want to enforce what you see as logical drawbacks of reality, you need to enforce the benefits as well or you look a mite hypocritical.
I'm sorry Rynjin, I'll be sure to temporal crystal ball it from now on.
Okay, I'm seeing the player in question being told no... He's upset. I think he's being offered a smaller bonus... And no, he's storming out anyway.
Maybe we played with and lost the same guy.
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You seem to like to have it both ways.
"I don't like the rules. It doesn't make sense that a character can survive swimming in lava. You die anyway."
"It makes sense that wearing lots of clothes protects you from the cold, but I don't like it. Doesn't work."
Its weird that it works that way when you quote two separate people. You seem to be falling into this "Us" versus "Them" mode where everyone that disagrees with you must all think exactly the same.
Its weird that it works that way when you quote two separate people. You seem to be falling into this "Us" versus "Them" mode where everyone that disagrees with you must all think exactly the same.You seem to like to have it both ways.
"I don't like the rules. It doesn't make sense that a character can survive swimming in lava. You die anyway."
"It makes sense that wearing lots of clothes protects you from the cold, but I don't like it. Doesn't work."
Well when his post basically boiled down to "I agree, and also...", you can see where I can get that impression.
Well when his post basically boiled down to "I agree, and also...", you can see where I can get that impression.
Not really. Just because we see the game differently, likely wouldn't enjoy playing at the same table, etc., is no reason why we have to be against one another.
For the record, I would give a character that took precautions such as the ones Freehold DM discussed re: white dragon breath a minor bonus. Most likely +1, +2 if the cloth was something special that would prevent cold (really thick wool perhaps.)
I would also make sure that all of this extra cloth was tracked against the character's encumbrance.
You obviously never had an encounter with liquid nitrogen. Trust me, layers of cloth won't help much. If at all.
Dragons breathe liquid nitrogen?
White dragons maybe.
Sure, why not. For something to deal 10d6 points of cold damage...it might as well be supercooled air or liquid nitrogen.
I never considered it as such. To me it was just intense cold.
If you change a white dragon's breath weapon to have additional effects (whatever you think would happen with liquid nitrogen), do you also give PCs who have high damage cold spells the same effects (say a 10d6 cone of cold)? Does it change if they roll poorly on the dice?
Indeed. Space only does 3d6 per round. 10d6 every 1d4 rounds is a bit more on average.
The background temperature of space is almost absolute zero. It is damned cold. However, no air means no heat transfer. That's why it's difficult to lose heat in space. That said, get a blast of solar wind and that's a different story.
Indeed. Space only does 3d6 per round. 10d6 every 1d4 rounds is a bit more on average.
Exposure to space IS likely to be a lot slower than supernaturally concentrated areas of cold.
It's like, standing in a room at 17 degrees will make you cold after a while.
Touching something that is 17 degrees (like an ice cube) hurts a lot more, even though it's technically the same temperature.
Poorly explained analogy but I think my point gets across.
Well you all sure showed me. Lots of games where falling from orbit is a common daily, or hourly, occurence, and rules need to be adjusted accordingly. Don't I feel the fool. Please continue your thread derail for several more pages, with my blessing.
Well, I admit I had to smile at this.
The question wasn't if the rules need to be adjusted, but what the rules actually say is possible... As it turns out, under RAW, falling from orbit actually is survivable. Under just the core rule book and using magic items to account for the lack of air and cold (the Gamemastery book really needs a write-up on space in its section talking about other planets), it's perfectly possible for someone to not even have to worry about the negative environmental effects.
It's still talking a bit about optimizing... just optimizing your chances of surviving reentry. Which, in turn, goes back to what the original poster was talking about in how they don't like optimization... here we have a specific optimization related to something that, realistically, no average character should ever have to worry about. So it's a situation someone would feel inadequate about when, really, they shouldn't have had to think about it at all... which, in turn, is the problem inherent in optimization in general.
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i think i am going to create a guide to optimizing i hate optimization threads.
Unknot your panties.
Well you all sure showed me. Lots of games where falling from orbit is a common daily, or hourly, occurence, and rules need to be adjusted accordingly. Don't I feel the fool. Please continue your thread derail for several more pages, with my blessing.Well, I admit I had to smile at this.
The question wasn't if the rules need to be adjusted, but what the rules actually say is possible... As it turns out, under RAW, falling from orbit actually is survivable. Under just the core rule book and using magic items to account for the lack of air and cold (the Gamemastery book really needs a write-up on space in its section talking about other planets), it's perfectly possible for someone to not even have to worry about the negative environmental effects.
It's still talking a bit about optimizing... just optimizing your chances of surviving reentry. Which, in turn, goes back to what the original poster was talking about in how they don't like optimization... here we have a specific optimization related to something that, realistically, no average character should ever have to worry about. So it's a situation someone would feel inadequate about when, really, they shouldn't have had to think about it at all... which, in turn, is the problem inherent in optimization in general.
I'm not sure it actually takes any optimization to survive a terminal velocity fall. Paizo's published 10th level warrior from the NPC Codex (gladiator champion) could do it, and he's an NPC class with 10 Con.
Sorry to bring this back up (okay, not really). I was visiting family and didn't have a chance to get back to this. I don't think anyone responded to it, if you did I must of missed it, that was against low Cha character being called pretty.
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Let's turn this around. Could someone describe their character as not very personable, having no significant magnetism, totally a follower (all hallmarks of a low Cha score wouldn't you agree) but being drop dead hot (indicative of a high Cha) and having a high Cha? Would having only one of features be significant be enough to justify having the high Cha? Because that seems to be what you are arguing by saying if you want your character to be attractive despite being a total beta-(fe)male, then you have to have a high Cha.
What if they are only missing one, think about all those guys that aren't that hot to look at (Clinton anyone), but due to total attitude and bearing, the chicks dig. Would you say they would have a high Cha score, or does the lack of one feature limit it? Where is the line? Could someone have an average Cha score (say 10) and have some of those traits be really good and others suck horribly?
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Sorry to bring this back up (okay, not really). I was visiting family and didn't have a chance to get back to this. I don't think anyone responded to it, if you did I must of missed it, that was against low Cha character being called pretty.
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Let's turn this around. Could someone describe their character as not very personable, having no significant magnetism, totally a follower (all hallmarks of a low Cha score wouldn't you agree) but being drop dead hot (indicative of a high Cha) and having a high Cha? Would having only one of features be significant be enough to justify having the high Cha? Because that seems to be what you are arguing by saying if you want your character to be attractive despite being a total beta-(fe)male, then you have to have a high Cha.What if they are only missing one, think about all those guys that aren't that hot to look at (Clinton anyone), but due to total attitude and bearing, the chicks dig. Would you say they would have a high Cha score, or does the lack of one feature limit it? Where is the line? Could someone have an average Cha score (say 10) and have some of those traits be really good and others suck horribly?
Indeed, it has been established that a character with a low CHA could still be extremely physically attractive. Likewise, a high charisma character could be hideously ugly.