But there has always been a divide between those who have magic, and those who do not.
A completely nonmagical character can take a feat from the CRB and then be capable of making magical equipment, an ability normally reserved for those who can cast spells.
A completely nonmagical character can take a feat from the CRB and then be capable of making magical equipment, an ability normally reserved for those who can cast spells.
Sure, but a.) no one has ever taken that feat yet in my group. No one even seems to be interested in it. b.) it allows you to make certain magical equipment, not all magical equipment.
I way I read it, you're just that good of a craftsmen that your skill in making weapons and armor produces magical quality items. Silly? Yeah, but definitely not "I can turn a guy into stone by hitting him with my hand" silly.
Point is, there is a CRB feat which gives nonmagical characters magical abilities---specifically the ability to imbue equipment with magic. No one in your group having the feat doesn't magically make it disappear from the CRB. So if you want a game where there is a strict divide between magic users and non-magic users, then CRB-only Pathfinder won't work.
Needs a warning label.
Warning: Some classes may be more magical than others.
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Sorry dude, people are all magic after level 5. Once your fighters hit level 10 you could realistically drop them from orbit and bombard a city in such a manner. AFTER THEY HIT THE GROUND YOU COULD REASONABLY EXPECT THEM TO GET UP AND START FIGHTING.
My barbarian actually did drop out of the stratosphere. He got tired of all the diplomacy going on around him and jumped off the airship's side. Terminal velocity wouldn't even drop him to half health even if the GM rolled max on every dice.
By level 3 or 4 you can afford boots of the cat. By that point, you'll not only have enough hitpoints to survive the fall wearing those boots, you'll also land on your feet!
Turning a guy to stone by punching him without using any kind of magical ability does not make sense to me.
Agreed.
Thankfully, Cockatrice Strike IS MAGIC.
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Anime = zero comeliness and negative charisma.LOL... I remember negative charisma scores. A Charisma score so low, it inspired fear and horror.
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In 1e it was the negative comeliness score. You could wind up in a situation where a god had a 25 CHA (presence) and a negative comeliness (looks). It was odd, but I thought it represented the "reality" of a being better than the numbers may now.
I do think one may influence the other, but they aren't the same thing. I personally know more than a few VERY physically attractive people that, either due to a lack of confidence or an overabundance, or other factors, have amazingly low presence or are just so arrogant and self absorbed that they are unpleasant and non-influential. And vice versa.
In case anyone cares, JJ answered my follow-up as well.
Correct. High Charisma certainly DRAMATICALLY increases the chances of a character being memorable in appearance (be that beauty or hideousness), but doesn't preclude something like the stereotyped "airhead" who's super beautiful but devoid of personality, or the village idiot who is super ugly but not particularly memorable because of a lack of significant personality. (Note that you CAN have an "airhead" or "village idiot" who DOES have a strong personalty!)
Sweet, thanks for the answer. I like this interpretation, if I'm reading this right. Cha determines your appearance, but not necessarily your attractiveness? Just how striking, memorable, "Wow factor"-y it is, whether it's anything special on its own or not?
I think this really does satisfy everyone, IMO. Your 5 Cha character can be beautiful...it's just nobody gives a shit because she's so dirty, rude, devoid of social graces, shy, whatever that nobody cares.
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Buildings have hundreds of hit points, so you're really just looking at cosmetic damage. :)Unless you, i don't know actually consider structural support to be a realistic thing
If I were considering the realistic thing, I wouldn't be worrying about the damage a falling body does from that height as it splatters.
If I were considering the realistic thing, I wouldn't be worrying about the damage a falling body does from that height as it splatters.Buildings have hundreds of hit points, so you're really just looking at cosmetic damage. :)Unless you, i don't know actually consider structural support to be a realistic thing
It would splatter after breaching the roof and probably a couple of floors, though. Human bodies have been found to be incredibly resilient siege engine ammunition for what they're composed of.
Thank the Mongols for investigating that piece of trivia.
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If I were considering the realistic thing, I wouldn't be worrying about the damage a falling body does from that height as it splatters.Buildings have hundreds of hit points, so you're really just looking at cosmetic damage. :)Unless you, i don't know actually consider structural support to be a realistic thingIt would splatter after breaching the roof and probably a couple of floors, though. Human bodies have been found to be incredibly resilient siege engine ammunition for what they're composed of.
Thank the Mongols for investigating that piece of trivia.
Advancing human knowledge is tiring work...
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Well, we now have the best way to kill dragons. Just have an airship air drop like sixteen barbarians on top of it. They can all hold their actions so they can jump off in the same round, thus preventing it from moving out of its spot. Of course, one must be certain said barbarians are falling from high enough to reach terminal velocity.
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Sorry dude, people are all magic after level 5. Once your fighters hit level 10 you could realistically drop them from orbit and bombard a city in such a manner. AFTER THEY HIT THE GROUND YOU COULD REASONABLY EXPECT THEM TO GET UP AND START FIGHTING.
This is where I have to split from the pack. If you are somehow falling from orbit and just trusting that your hit points will save you, you will die in my game. There is a limit to my ability to metabolize nonsense, and that, by far, surpasses it.
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Sorry dude, people are all magic after level 5. Once your fighters hit level 10 you could realistically drop them from orbit and bombard a city in such a manner. AFTER THEY HIT THE GROUND YOU COULD REASONABLY EXPECT THEM TO GET UP AND START FIGHTING.This is where I have to split from the pack. If you are somehow falling from orbit and just trusting that your hit points will save you, you will die in my game. There is a limit to my ability to metabolize nonsense, and that, by far, surpasses it.
And that is a houserule.
And that is a houserule.Sorry dude, people are all magic after level 5. Once your fighters hit level 10 you could realistically drop them from orbit and bombard a city in such a manner. AFTER THEY HIT THE GROUND YOU COULD REASONABLY EXPECT THEM TO GET UP AND START FIGHTING.This is where I have to split from the pack. If you are somehow falling from orbit and just trusting that your hit points will save you, you will die in my game. There is a limit to my ability to metabolize nonsense, and that, by far, surpasses it.
Actually, by rules standards, it's technically not.
Remember what the rules say about being high up in mountains? The thin air? A barbarian falling from orbit would have to put up with the falling damage, plus the damage from that, plus potentially damage from burning up in atmosphere, plus cold damage (IIRC, mountains again), plus maybe a few other damage sources I'm forgetting or not yet aware of.
So, in short, that barbarian is probably dead.
Actually, by rules standards, it's technically not.
Remember what the rules say about being high up in mountains? The thin air? A barbarian falling from orbit would have to put up with the falling damage, plus the damage from that, plus potentially damage from burning up in atmosphere, plus cold damage (IIRC, mountains again), plus maybe a few other damage sources I'm forgetting or not yet aware of.
If you're going to make assertions, go ahead and cite your sources and add up the dice. Making a flat denial and backing it up with nothing but hazy memories and "maybe-kinda-sorta" isn't really convincing, if you're going to talk about technical rules standards.
If you're going to make assertions, go ahead and cite your sources and add up the dice. Making a flat denial and backing it up with nothing but hazy memories and "maybe-kinda-sorta" isn't really convincing, if you're going to talk about technical rules standards.Actually, by rules standards, it's technically not.
Remember what the rules say about being high up in mountains? The thin air? A barbarian falling from orbit would have to put up with the falling damage, plus the damage from that, plus potentially damage from burning up in atmosphere, plus cold damage (IIRC, mountains again), plus maybe a few other damage sources I'm forgetting or not yet aware of.
Here's the relevant rules:
High altitude travel can be extremely fatiguing—and sometimes deadly—to creatures that aren't used to it. Cold becomes extreme, and the lack of oxygen in the air can wear down even the most hardy of warriors.
High Peak (more than 15,000 feet): The highest mountains exceed 15,000 feet in height. At these elevations, creatures are subject to both high altitude fatigue (as described above) and altitude sickness, whether or not they're acclimated to high altitudes. Altitude sickness represents long-term oxygen deprivation, and affects mental and physical ability scores. After each 6-hour period a character spends at an altitude of over 15,000 feet, he must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1 point of damage to all ability scores. Creatures acclimated to high altitude receive a +4 competence bonus on their saving throws to resist high altitude effects and altitude sickness, but eventually even seasoned mountaineers must abandon these dangerous elevations.
Extreme cold (below –20° F) deals 1d6 points of lethal damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage.
So, I admit I was off. Falling from orbit for an Earth-sized planet only takes about... 4-5 minutes, according to NASA.
So... Adding up the dice...
Probably no more than 23d6. I'm not getting exact here because I don't want to drag out all of the massive math about orbits, falling from them, applying terminal velocity to figure out how fast someone is traveling per minute and how long it takes before they get below 15,000 feet, etc.
So, I was wrong.
Edit: Low-Earth Orbit is at 524,934 feet. So, it looks like 3 minutes works out just fine as an approximation.
Edit 2: Golarion is the same size as Earth, so the orbits would match up between the two worlds. So, the math fits.
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Even rolling max on 23d6 probably won't bring a level 11-12 barbarian to half health, let alone kill it. Kind of an absurd thought to fall out of orbit and live, no? Even more so if you play with the group I do. I could see one of us declaring our fall out of orbit as a charge. I mean... you ARE moving in a straight line.
Even rolling max on 23d6 probably won't bring a level 11-12 barbarian to half health, let alone kill it. Kind of an absurd thought to fall out of orbit and live, no? Even more so if you play with the group I do. I could see one of us declaring our fall out of orbit as a charge. I mean... you ARE moving in a straight line.
Well, here's the question no one is answering: How long was the barbarian above 15,000 feet before falling from orbit?
After all, every minute up there is dealing 1d6 cold damage and potentially both dealing nonlethal damage and damaging attributes. And every minute you are up there, the change of that "potential" changing to "constantly" increases every time a check is rolled... and the barbarian has to roll at least three of those checks on their way back down.
Of DC 15, 16, 17 Fort saves dude.
A level 1 non raging barbarian with 14 con will have a 50% of making the first check.
Level 11? Cake walk!
If they've been up there 22 minutes before falling, it's not 15, 16, and 17 on the way back down. It's 37, 38, and 39.
That's why I asked that bit about how long they've been up there before falling.
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Of DC 15, 16, 17 Fort saves dude.
A level 1 non raging barbarian with 14 con will have a 50% of making the first check.
Level 11? Cake walk!
If they've been up there 22 minutes before falling, it's not 15, 16, and 17 on the way back down. It's 37, 38, and 39.
That's why I asked that bit about how long they've been up there before falling.
A well built barbarian at level 11 is going to look at a DC 39 fort save, laugh, and proceed to pass it on a roll of 5.
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This is still going on? ugh
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This is still going on? ugh
There's a handy little thing where you can just not read a thread, you know.
You should utilize it more often instead of making pointless posts constantly going "OMG I don't like the fact that this exists it physically hurts me stop".
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This is where I have to split from the pack. If you are somehow falling from orbit and just trusting that your hit points will save you, you will die in my game. There is a limit to my ability to metabolize nonsense, and that, by far, surpasses it.
You dirty houseruler you. If it is not in the book, it does not exist. What, do you expect people to use common sense with this game?
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This is still going on? ugh
BACK IN YOUR STALL! HOW ARE YOU TALKING LET ALONE TYPING?!
As far as the "how long are you above 15,000 feet" question let's consider the atmosphere. The exosphere is as high as 800 km. That said, the International Space Station is located in the thermosphere at about 400 km. So, taking this down to where we could actually breathe, albeit barely, probably brings us to the stratosphere which resides at 12 km. 15,000 feet being approx 4.5 km, it's about 2/3 of the time of falling to take this high altitude damage. Given that it takes 4 minutes to fall 24 miles, 12 km comes to a fall time of just over 1 minute. Thus, you'd get maybe an extra 1d6 worth of damage. Any higher starting altitude and suffocation rules would come into play.
Sources:
Wikipedia
New York Times
This is still going on? ughBACK IN YOUR STALL! HOW ARE YOU TALKING LET ALONE TYPING?!
As far as the "how long are you above 15,000 feet" question let's consider the atmosphere. The exosphere is as high as 800 km. That said, the International Space Station is located in the thermosphere at about 400 km. So, taking this down to where we could actually breathe, albeit barely, probably brings us to the stratosphere which resides at 12 km. 15,000 feet being approx 4.5 km, it's about 2/3 of the time of falling to take this high altitude damage. Given that it takes 4 minutes to fall 24 miles, 12 km comes to a fall time of just over 1 minute. Thus, you'd get maybe an extra 1d6 worth of damage. Any higher starting altitude and suffocation rules would come into play.
Sources:
Wikipedia
New York Times
Well now that make sense....carry on!
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And that is a houserule.Sorry dude, people are all magic after level 5. Once your fighters hit level 10 you could realistically drop them from orbit and bombard a city in such a manner. AFTER THEY HIT THE GROUND YOU COULD REASONABLY EXPECT THEM TO GET UP AND START FIGHTING.This is where I have to split from the pack. If you are somehow falling from orbit and just trusting that your hit points will save you, you will die in my game. There is a limit to my ability to metabolize nonsense, and that, by far, surpasses it.
And I am completely fine with that. It's probably the least offensive house rule I have as well, and comes up the least often.
As far as the "how long are you above 15,000 feet" question let's consider the atmosphere. The exosphere is as high as 800 km. That said, the International Space Station is located in the thermosphere at about 400 km. So, taking this down to where we could actually breathe, albeit barely, probably brings us to the stratosphere which resides at 12 km. 15,000 feet being approx 4.5 km, it's about 2/3 of the time of falling to take this high altitude damage. Given that it takes 4 minutes to fall 24 miles, 12 km comes to a fall time of just over 1 minute. Thus, you'd get maybe an extra 1d6 worth of damage. Any higher starting altitude and suffocation rules would come into play.
Sources:
Wikipedia
New York Times
The starting location is in orbit. I used Low-Earth Orbit at its absolute lowest range for my estimates; that's how I got the 3d6 (which is actually for the cold exposure). I probably should have used the middle of the range, but I was kinda counting on the idea of it being a range you can hit with a single Teleport spell.
I was not dealing with the suffocation rules simply because I wanted to avoid the math and trying to justify it as more than a houserule.
There is a feat and some other such things to handle the thin atmosphere too. Not saying the barbarian would have actually taken it.
But now I have an idea for a new character... see I typed in barbarian as barbarina and thought barbarian ballerina and well now do I need to say more?
The true danger of space is radiation. If you can't breath, then you're done, period, unless you don't need to breathe. Even if you're immune to cold damage you still shouldn't be immune to the rigors of space. Direct sunlight exposure for any length of time should be fatal. So, if you want to throw all that out of the equation you really should adjust your starting altitude to negate it for you to keep your example balanced.
Keep in mind any commoner NPC would definitely die from any height let alone one that happens anywhere near orbit. Past 5th level you're a super human/being and are capable of similar feats. Also, falling from a relatively extraordinarily high height as compared to body size and living is not all that uncommon in nature.
But now I have an idea for a new character... see I typed in barbarian as barbarina and thought barbarian ballerina and well now do I need to say more?
If barbarian librarian, why not barbarian ballerina?
Throw in a barbarian beauty queen to complete the trio.
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The true danger of space is radiation. If you can't breath, then you're done, period, unless you don't need to breathe. Even if you're immune to cold damage you still shouldn't be immune to the rigors of space. Direct sunlight exposure for any length of time should be fatal. So, if you want to throw all that out of the equation you really should adjust your starting altitude to negate it for you to keep your example balanced.
Keep in mind any commoner NPC would definitely die from any height let alone one that happens anywhere near orbit. Past 5th level you're a super human/being and are capable of similar feats. Also, falling from a relatively extraordinarily high height as compared to body size and living is not all that uncommon in nature.
Oh, we're talking about falling from high enough to where your fall probably constitutes reentry. As for the sun's radiation; a couple seconds' worth of direct exposure is probably no worse than a sorcerer lodging a 15d6+45 fireball in your face.
Oh, we're talking about falling from high enough to where your fall probably constitutes reentry. As for the sun's radiation; a couple seconds' worth of direct exposure is probably no worse than a sorcerer lodging a 15d6+45 fireball in your face.
I know. That's what I advised MagusJanus to do for consistency. He's talking about low earth orbit. I'm talking about falling.
As to radiation, it's much worse as the charged particles of solar wind carry radiation that destroys cell walls. A mere fireball does not. As a GM, I would treat this as a unique energy type. There should be a reason why only a few, limited creatures have a stated ability to survive space travel. Failing this explicit ability, you should die should you actually find yourself there for any significant length of time.
Oh, we're talking about falling from high enough to where your fall probably constitutes reentry. As for the sun's radiation; a couple seconds' worth of direct exposure is probably no worse than a sorcerer lodging a 15d6+45 fireball in your face.The true danger of space is radiation. If you can't breath, then you're done, period, unless you don't need to breathe. Even if you're immune to cold damage you still shouldn't be immune to the rigors of space. Direct sunlight exposure for any length of time should be fatal. So, if you want to throw all that out of the equation you really should adjust your starting altitude to negate it for you to keep your example balanced.
Keep in mind any commoner NPC would definitely die from any height let alone one that happens anywhere near orbit. Past 5th level you're a super human/being and are capable of similar feats. Also, falling from a relatively extraordinarily high height as compared to body size and living is not all that uncommon in nature.
Since reentry is usually associated with things burning up...
Two rings of resist energy, one for cold and one for fire, and an iridescent spindle ioun stone. Make the character a dwarf who took the racial alternate favored class level up to gain extra rounds of rage. They rage before they hit the ground, get healed by a cleric, and then start slaughtering.
There. Dwarf space marines.
Oh, we're talking about falling from high enough to where your fall probably constitutes reentry. As for the sun's radiation; a couple seconds' worth of direct exposure is probably no worse than a sorcerer lodging a 15d6+45 fireball in your face.I know. That's what I advised MagusJanus to do for consistency. He's talking about low earth orbit. I'm talking about falling.
As to radiation, it's much worse as the charged particles of solar wind carry radiation that destroys cell walls. A mere fireball does not. As a GM, I would treat this as a unique energy type. There should be a reason why only a few, limited creatures have a stated ability to survive space travel. Failing this explicit ability, you should die should you actually find yourself there for any significant length of time.
The orbit bit wasn't my idea. I was merely questioning if it's a good idea at the time.
That said, I would treat that radiation as though it were sun damage, similar to one of the spells that gives it, except sun damage that affects everything which doesn't live in space.
Then again, players who've had me as DM know not to teleport too high... After all, there is a point where Earth's gravity might not pull you back in.
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Yeah, people don't do jumps like that (ie from high altitudes) in my games. Bless home-brewed rules of common sense and critical tables that can result in painful lessons for why these are bad ideas.
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It's exactly these types of shenanigans that keep me firmly against optimization. Sorry toz.
It doesn't take any optimization to survive a really high jump. You just need to be high enough level to have the hitpoints needed and get someone to cast a few low level spells on you.