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No official word on the matter, as far as I'm aware.
I personally give a player an additional focus point whenever they get another focus spell (up to 3, as normal). Seems the most logical solution without edge cases and exceptions.
Hymn of Healing is a bard feat 1 that grants a composition spell, so it assumes that the bard already has a focus pool to cast composition spells. A character with the bard multiclass archetype can take the Hymn of Healing feat through Basic Muse's Whispers bard archetype feat 4, "You gain a 1st- or 2nd-level bard feat." But Basic Muse's Whispers does not grant a focus pool either, because it can be used to take bard feats that have nothing to do with focus spells.
The result is that the multiclass character gains a focus spell without any focus points to cast it. Or the character could have focus points from another source, such as a monk with a focus pool from Ki Strike, and use those focus points to cast Hymn of Healing.
In contrast, the bard archetype feat 6 Counter Perform directly grants the Counter Performance composition spell. Thus, this feat realizes that the multiclass character might lack a focus pool and says, "If you don’t already have one, you gain a focus pool of 1 Focus Point, which you can Refocus by engaging your muse." Note that a feat 6 typically grants a little more than a feat 4.
The GM granting a free one-point focus pool to a character with a focus spell is generous. Less generous GMs will let the player retrain the useless Basic Muse's Whisper(Hymn of Healing) for free. Paizo has not indicated which solution is the proper one.
The result is that the multiclass character gains a focus spell without any focus points to cast it.Regardless of 'additional focus points' question, this is absolutely impossible because of that:
'You automatically gain a focus pool of 1 Focus Point the first time you gain an ability that gives you a focus spell.'
That is the rule that HumbleGamer was looking for. I didn't know it existed.
I believe in giving citations along with quotations. Errenor gave enough text for me to word-search the Core Rulebook. It is on page 300 in the Spells chapter. The Archives of Nethys link is Focus Spells and the sentence is the second sentence in the third paragraph.
I skimmed that page but missed that sentence. Sorry about the error.
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Tried to search on this subforum but couldn't find anything recent ( but I remember this was discussed over and over ).
This is probably the thread you are thinking of: Gaining focus points when you already have them?
There have been numerous threads like this one. Several errata later and still no answers.
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What needs to be answered? The rules have been clear since the first printing. You get a focus pool and 1 point in it the first time you gain an ability that gives you a focus spell, as stated on CR p.300 quoted above. Then you gain an additional point each time an ability says you do or would give you a focus pool
The questions are:
* Why are there feats that explicitly say that they only give you a focus point if you don't already have one? That scenario is already covered by the general rule.
* Why do some feats not say that they give focus points at all and instead rely on the general rule?
* Why do other feats explicitly say that they give additional focus points under all circumstances?
It seems a bit unfair that some feats that give you a new focus spell do give you another focus point, but others don't. We aren't sure if that is a case of multiple developers not fully on the same page, or if those feats are actually intended to be less powerful.
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You're gonna have to spell out what the example is here. I'm seeing two abilities that give you a focus spell, which would give you a focus pool and 1 point in it if you didn't already have one, or adds 1 to your existing focus pool if you do. It's all in the text on those two pages
There are no gotcha scenarios where you "took the feats in the wrong order" and miss out on getting focus points. If an ability would give you a point under any circumstances, it gives you a point
That's the key right there.
The example that I have used previously is Hymn of Healing and Basic Lesson to get Life Boost. Very similar spells.
If you take Bard archetype and Hymn of Healing first, then you get a focus point with your first focus spell due to the general rule. If you then take Witch archetype and Basic Lesson, then it increases your focus pool to 2.
If you instead take Witch archetype and Basic Lesson first, then you get a focus point with your first focus spell. But when you take Bard archetype and Hymn of Healing, it doesn't give you a 2nd focus point because you already have a focus pool with one point in it.
Why not?
Because you're not reading all of the rules together. There are no gotcha scenarios like you describe. The first time you gain an ability that gives you a focus spell, it gives you a focus pool and 1 point in it. If you already have a pool, it gives you another point up to your max of 3 because if you didn't have a pool it would give you one even if it doesn't explicitly say so because of that general rule and the sidebar on 302
And in the case where you do have a focus pool?
It says if you don't have a focus pool then it gives you one with one point in it.
So if you instead already do have a focus pool, then it doesn't give you one.
And therefore doesn't trigger the other general rule that if you have two abilities that each give you a focus pool that you combine the points in it.
The general rule doesn't say to look only at each ability individually and see if it could give a hypothetical character a focus pool. It looks at if this particular character already has a focus pool or not.
Yes, running the game with no gotchas involved is a much better idea. And most people - including myself - will use the Ambiguous Rules rule to change the wording to something that makes sense.
That doesn't change the fact that for 3 errata passes, these feats and general rules regarding how many focus points a particular character has - is rather broken.
I really don't think I am cherry-picking wording.
And yes, that example confuses everything since the example is going directly against what the rules text says to do.
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The example in the 302 sidebar includes the feat, Healing Touch, that has that very wording of "if you already have a pool" as the second one taken and concludes with gaining an additional point, just like I've been saying. Really, go read all of the rules together. Don't just cherry-pick the wordings that fit the worst take to prolong confusion. I'm here to answer questions or be educated and arguing in circles with a devil's advocate does neither so have fun
You really have to read the WHOLE text.
The sidebar on page 302 says:
Focus Points from Multiple Sources
It's possible, especially through archetypes, to gain focus spells and Focus Points from more than one source. If this happens, you have just one focus pool, adding all the Focus Points together to determine the total size of your pool. (Remember that the maximum number of Focus Points a pool can have is 3.) If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool. For instance, if you were a cleric with the Domain Initiate feat, you would have a pool with 1 Focus Point. Let's say you then took the champion multiclass archetype and the Healing Touch feat. Normally, this feat would give you a focus pool. Since you already have one, it instead increases your existing pool's capacity by 1.Focus Points are not differentiated by source; you can spend any of your Focus Points on any of your focus spells. Likewise, when you Refocus, you get back a point as long as you follow the guidelines of any abilities that granted you focus spells. Having Focus Points from multiple sources doesn't change the tradition of your spells; if you had both cleric domain spells and druid order spells, your domain spells would remain divine and the order spells primal. This could mean that you need to keep track of a different proficiency and ability modifier with the spell DC and spell attack roll of different focus spells.
The whole sidebar is about focus points from "multiple sources" and all of the examples of what they mean by multiple sources are from multiclassing.
If taking more feats inside the same class was also considered multiple sources (because they're different feats) then why does the sidebar point out that you're "especially" likely to get focus points from multiple sources when archetypes are involved? Wouldn't taking feats inside your main class be much more common?
Also, if every ability with focus spells gave you a focus points, it could have saved them lots and lots of text and there would be no need for some feats to say that they increase your focus pool and others not to say that; none of them would have to say that. Given how Paizo likes to save word count and how they tried to word the same things the same way throughout the book, that doesn't make sense.
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Oh, my. So apparently we now have to not only nitpick wordings of every focus spell feat, but also every time consider whether it counts as a different or already existing source. That's a complete nightmare.
That is unfortunately the game Paizo wrote.
Lots of minor wording differences everywhere. Some level 1 characters start with two focus points rather than one, some focus spells don't give you an extra focus point.
It would have been nice if Paizo have been consistent and removed some of the unnecessary complexity from the game. But they didn't do that. Its a game of specific exceptions in specific rules, of digging into traits to find gotchas. It adds complexity and perhaps flavour.
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I have read all the rules up, down, and sideways. Debated them out with multiple people. And I can't come to any conclusion other than that RAW is confusing on this topic. RAI could even go a couple or three valid directions.
1) The general rules gives you a focus pool with one point if you ever get a focus spell but no focus pool.
2) The general rules also have you combine multiple focus pools and add the points together if you would be given multiple focus pools.
3) Some feats do not say that you get a focus pool or focus point (Hymn of Healing for example). You would only get a focus pool due to the general rule and therefore only get a focus pool if you don't already have one.
4) Some feats do explicitly say that you get a focus point added in all cases (Basic Lesson for example).
5) Some feats explicitly say that you only get a focus pool if you don't already have one (Healing Touch for example). Which is redundant with the general rule and item #3.
All of the above together means that there are cases where the number of focus points you have can be different depending on which order you take the feats in.
And finally
6) The sidebar regarding focus points from multiple sources gives an example where a character that already has a focus pool takes a feat that gives them a focus pool if they don't already have one - but they still end up with 2 focus points. Which is a violation of the above rules and the basics of the English language.
So, scenario:
Bard class (no archetypes). Enigma muse.
At level 2 they take Hymn of Healing.
How many focus points do they have?
And how do you justify that answer from the printed rules?
Focus spell = focus point until at your maximum of 3. There are so few feats that give a focus spell without mentioning adding focus points that I read the lack as an oversight, not design
breith, the example on 302 spells out how we add those to our pool. I don't consider it a "violation" of the English language or somesuch drama. Just redundancy
That is a valid interpretation of RAI.
But it isn't RAW.
Man, I told you I don't argue in circles with devil's advocates. You already brought that spell up above in the thread and my answer and reasons haven't changed. But why wait until level 2? Seems odd to me you picked enigma muse, or was that a trap? 9_9 Be a human maestro muse and take Hymn at level 1 and have 3 focus points out of the gate. OMG so OP! It's only 3 focus points. Who cares if they can blow a slightly bigger wad in one or two battlesSo, scenario:
Bard class (no archetypes). Enigma muse.
At level 2 they take Hymn of Healing.How many focus points do they have?
And how do you justify that answer from the printed rules?
I specified the Muse to avoid a trap. A Maestro Muse Bard gets two points at level 1. The others only get one. I wanted to make sure that the level 1 count is unambiguous.
But you still haven't justified why you think you get an additional point for Hymn of Healing.
Nothing in the feat says that you do.
You already have a focus pool from level 1.
So at level 2 when Hymn of Healing is taken, where do the rules actually say that they get another point?
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The short answer is lots of people have firm stances on both sides of the issue, yet Paizo doesn't think it's FAQ worthy. That could suggest they don't care about the matter, or they think the answer should be obvious (which it isn't to some people clearly).
My own personal suggestion is don't setup situations where taking feats in different orders gives you a different total amount. Just give the PC the same number of points, because they can retrain it (wasting their time) if you decide to fall on the side of Healing Hands doesn't give you a FP if you already have a pool.