My take on the Wood Elf

[wspatterson]

Voila!

Wood Elf
+2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha

Medium size

30 ft move

Low-light vision

Immune to magical sleep & +2 to saves vs enchantment

Woodcraft - +2 to survival & knowledge (nature), survival & knowledge (nature) are always class skills

Keen senses - +2 to perception

Weapon familiarity – always proficient in the longbow, shortbow, longsword & handaxe & treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name as a martial weapon

Languages – elvish, common, bonus languages: draconic, sylvan, orc, goblin, gnome, gnoll

[The Shaman]

Sounds decent. I am actually tempted switching the penalty to intelligence, considering they are usually portrayed as a low-tech culture with little in terms of formal education - and iirc both wood and wild elves in 3.5 had intelligence minuses. It would conflict a bit with the PF elves getting a +2 to intelligence, but to be honest I was never very happy with the justifications for that stat boost.

It also means your lorekeepers are more likely to be bards and your mages - sorcerers, which imo works quite well with a "foresty" elf archetype.

[wspatterson]

Those are very good points. I debated it, myself, before posting.

[wspatterson]

I know wild elves made it into 3.5, but I don't know if grugrach specifically did. They were the wild elves of Oerth. Here's my take:

Grugrach

Humanoid (elf)

+2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Int

Medium size

30 ft move

Low-light vision

Immune to magical sleep & +2 to saves vs enchantment

Keen senses - +2 to perception

Camouflage - +4 to stealth when in forest/ jungle

Woodcraft - +2 to survival, survival is always a class skill

Weapon familiarity – always proficient in the longbow (including composite longbows), shortbow (including composite shortbows), longsword & handaxe & treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name as a martial weapon

Languages – elvish, common; bonus languages: draconic, sylvan, orc, goblin, gnome, gnoll

Given how xenophobic grugrach are supposed to be, maybe they should only start with elvish, and common should be one of thier bonus languages.

[Kazaan]

If you take Charisma to equate to "self esteem and confidence", then you have two broad categories for "isolated races" in regards to Cha modifiers. Dwarves are largely an isolated culture and are largely a closed community; among other dwarves of their own clan, they are interdependent, but when it comes to dealing with others, they are closed and lack "people skills". This is the "isolated clan" or the "isolated pack" model and will typically take a Cha penalty. The other category is the Confident Loner. These are typically your Hags and highly confident individuals who sort of "float" from one area to another. They are highly confident in their own abilities so, should the need arise, they can easily elicit help from others even among strangers. These are your Mysterious Strangers, your wandering Bards, your Knight-Errants, etc. Occasionally, you'll have a conflation of the two; the Lone Wolf. Low charisma reflected by origins in the Isolated Group mentality, but, for reasons, this individual is operating alone and divorced from that group. Like a wolf who has separated from his pack, he has the Cha penalty, but still operates alone. Low esteem and confidence, but perseveres through shear ability.

So, first, you need to determine what, exactly, your "Wood Elves" represent? Are they a clannish group, isolated and xenophobic, similar to Dwarves? Do they sublimate their personal confidence and achievement towards "the good of the commune"? If so, they are an Isolated Group model and would take a penalty to Cha. They'd be more inclined towards Clerics and Druids rather than Sorcerers. By contrast, if they are more Confident Loners who exist largely as individuals and independents, but are highly confident in their own abilities (whether deserved or misplaced doesn't factor in), operating more like Hags, then they have either neutral Cha or maybe even a bonus to Cha. If it's a bonus to Cha, the minus shifts from Wis to Int. Otherwise, the minus goes to Int. Intelligence reflects long-term knowledge gathering, not only for your own benefit but largely for the benefit of others. But a charismatic loner has no interest in gathering knowledge for the benefit of generations to come. He's not going to be an innovative inventor, he's going to focus on the here and now and utilize more what he's already familiar with (Wisdom) rather than what can be improved upon (Intelligence).

Regarding the Weapons, I question whether Axes are appropriate. I've never viewed Elves as the types to hack down even branches with an axe. Maybe if these were Elves that have abandoned the "ways of the forest" in favor of less natural ways, it would be understandable... but for Wood Elves, I just don't feel it. They either study how to magically ask trees to grow into houses for them or they "rough it". I don't see them, in any way, being proficient with Axes as a weapon. If anything, I'd see them as more wild fighters, ready to get their hands dirty. Give them Bows + Elven weapons, then give them Improved Unarmed Strike; if you live in the wild, you never want to be unarmed. This is even more fitting if they are Charismatic Loners. If you go with the Isolated Clan model, it might be better to go with Longsword + either Kukri or Glaive; I find those to be somewhat more fitting of the woodsy elf motif.

[The Shaman]

It also depends on just how magical these elves should be. IMO the hatchet (which isn't too far from a handaxe) is a very versatile tool and weapon, and fits wood elves just fine. If you live in the forest, you live with what the forest provides - and can't magic your way around everything, then being able to cut down a branch or two is quite useful. Just because elves tend not to be industrial loggers doesn't mean they can't cut a tree every now and then.

Axes tend to be a dwarfish weapon, but there is definitely precedent in various fantasy for elves and other woodland creatures using them - ever since Tolkien, iirc.

[wspatterson]

The tomahawk & hatchet are traditional woodsman weapons, which is what I was thinking with the handaxe. Though now, I am thinking I should add in the throwing axe.

[Kazaan]

Also keep in mind that using something as a tool is very different from using it as a weapon. Just because you're a professional lumberjack doesn't necessarily mean you're proficient in using an axe to attack creatures and animals. In fact, you'd be more likely to use a hunting knife for something like that because you don't want to damage your primary wood-cutting tool. It'll serve in a pinch, but is this a culture where every man, woman, and child is trained to attack people proficiently with axes? If not, then they don't belong on the racial weapon training block.

[wspatterson]

Well, native Americans used their tomahawks as both a weapon of war and a multi-purpose tool. The eastern woodland tribes were more likely to use the ball club before European settlers arrived, but after that, the tomahawk became more commonly used.

[Gherrick]

I agree that wood elves should not get a Cha penalty. The -int penalty makes a bit more sense since they aren't generally viewed as scholarly types. I also agree about not granting axe proficiencies in any capacity. Any elf that hasn't completely forsaken their natural roots (ie, drow) would not want to harm plants unless absolutely necessary. You don't need proficiency to use a handaxe as a tool.

My wood elf would blend wspatterson's and the OP, like this:

Humanoid (elf)
+2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int

Medium size
30 ft move
Low-light vision
Keen Senses: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks.
Woodcraft: Elves know the deep secrets of the wild like no others, especially secrets of the forests. Elves with this racial trait gain a +1 racial bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks. In forest terrain, these bonuses improve to +2.
Nimble Moves: You gain the Nimble Moves feat.
Weapon Familiarity: Wood Elves are proficient with longbows (including composite longbows), shortbows (including composite shortbows), and spears, and treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name as a martial weapon.
Languages: Same as standard Elves.

---

You lose Elven Immunities and Elven Magic traits to gain the Nimble Moves feat.

[The Shaman]

Most spears are simple weapons and pretty much anyone is proficient with them anyway. Anyway, axe proficiency would follow from being very proficient with the tool - in history, there are many examples of a tool becoming a weapon.

It is not a huge thing either way, just a nitpick. We may just as well leave them proficient with bows and call it a day, maybe give them something to aid their markmanship - maybe getting +10 feet to the range category of any bow? Bonuses to attack are a bit rare in PF.

"Any elf that hasn't completely forsaken their natural roots (ie, drow) would not want to harm plants unless absolutely necessary"

I think this is a bit too much of a generalization. Why are elves obliged to be any more environmentalist than any other forest race in every single setting? Plus, there is a big difference from respecting your environment to never harming a plant.

[wspatterson]

And what do elves eat, exactly?

[Kazaan]

wspatterson wrote:

And what do elves eat, exactly?

The sugar they make through photosynthesis. And, occasionally, some plant material. But for an Elf, eating plants is akin to Humans eating meat and diary while what they produce through photosynthesis is akin to Humans eating plant products (ie. fruits, vegetables, and grains). Whereas we would "butcher" animals, Elves will sometimes need to "butcher" plants in order to subsist. They view it as a noble sacrifice on the part of the plant.

[Gherrick]

Kazaan wrote:

wspatterson wrote:

And what do elves eat, exactly?

The sugar they make through photosynthesis. And, occasionally, some plant material. But for an Elf, eating plants is akin to Humans eating meat and diary while what they produce through photosynthesis is akin to Humans eating plant products (ie. fruits, vegetables, and grains). Whereas we would "butcher" animals, Elves will sometimes need to "butcher" plants in order to subsist. They view it as a noble sacrifice on the part of the plant.

This can go for animals as well. Not all elves are vegetarians, but I think the general flavor should resemble the native american's point of view of mutual respect and reverence of life.

[Gherrick]

The Shaman wrote:

"Any elf that hasn't completely forsaken their natural roots (ie, drow) would not want to harm plants unless absolutely necessary"

I think this is a bit too much of a generalization. Why are elves obliged to be any more environmentalist than any other forest race in every single setting? Plus, there is a big difference from respecting your environment to never harming a plant.

I was a bit too aggressive in that statement than I intended. What I meant was that elves in general would rather work with the environment than tame it. That said, I think they wouldn't chop down a bunch of trees just to gain some farmland. They might not replenish a forest that was destroyed by a fire, but they wouldn't be the ones to start the fire, either.

[wspatterson]

I have to agree with the native American analogy.

[The Shaman]

It is a definite possibility - that or Celts. Just as long as it's not taken too far. I actually quite like the idea of wood elves being fairly proficient with axes - possibly more than swords, which are more expensive and harder to make for a woodland culture.