Cinematic Zombie, need help with CR.

[TheDux]

So in my campaign is set at the beginning of a zombie apocalypses. While the players will have to deal with the rising zombie threat, they will also be taking on more "tradition" adventures as well. I found that th standard zombie (and even the plague zombie) just didn't fit the bill. I want my zombies to be more feared, more relentless, and more deadly circumstances. Something better to be avoided. I have the stat block made up for them, I just need help determining the CR.

Basic idea: The body goes down and keeps getting back up until you kill the brain. It doesn't feel pain or get tired so your attacks mean little to it.

Zombie:

Human Zombie CR ?
XP ?
NE Medium undead
Init +0; [b]Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0

Defense
AC 12, touch 10, flat-footed 12 (+2 natural)
hp (Body) 12 (2d8+3), fast healing 1
hp (Head) 1
Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +3
BODY
DR 5/slashing,bludgeoning,piercing; Immune undead traits, cold; Resist 5 acid, electricity, fire, and sonic
HEAD
DR 5/slashing,bludgeoning; Immune undead traits, cold; Resist 5 acid, electricity, fire, and sonic

Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee slam +4 (1d6+3), bite -1 (1d8+1 plus disease)

Statistics
Str 17, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 14
Feats Toughness
Special Qualities staggered, kill the brain

The bite attack zombie carries the zombie rot disease.
Zombie rot: bite; save Fort DC 12 (10+HD); onset 1d4 days; frequency 1/day; effect 1d2 Con, this damage cannot be healed while the creature is infected; cure 2 consecutive saves. Anyone who dies while infected rises as a zombie in 2d6 hours.

Kill the Brain: The zombie's fast healing will continue to work until the brain is destroyed. This is a called shot on the head
(-5) or a critical hit. The body will fall after 1d4 rounds after brain is killed or when reduced to 0 HP. A critical hit with a called shot to the head will cause the zombie to drop instantly.

Notes: Still not sure if the zombie rot is enough to keep the part from wanting to avoid zombies more than fight them (or at least try to deal with them from range). I will be attempting other zombies using this as the "base" zombie. Fast Zombie, Plague Zombie (add the explosion on death with higher DC Zombie Rot), flaming zombies, etc.

So what kind of CR do you think this should be? any changes or suggestions? Do you think the head-shot weakness makes up for the increased durability?

[Whale_Cancer]

Fast healing 1 on such a low level critter isn't a big deal at all. Also, undead are destroyed at 0 so they won't be coming back with fast healing (AFAIK).

That DR is bizarre. You need a weapon that does all of those types of damage to bypass? Why?

The resists are also weird.

I would instead give them a large boost in HD and give them something like "Head shot weakness" where they are destroyed from crits or severe (is that what they are called?) called shots to the head.

As it stands... CR 1? First level fighters built properly can still fell them in one or two attacks more often than not.

Edit: I'm interested in this topic as I am writing a modern game ATM that includes zombies. I've given them the plague zombie template(but without the explosion or loss of whatever it is they lose) as well as the brain eating template. I think these kinds of zombies are only truly useful when the PCs are put into situations where they are difficult to avoid (civilians need to be rescued, no way around, surrounded in a building, etc.,) as opposed to just thinking of them as straight-up combatants.

[TheDux]

My bad, I did the DR and Resist wrong. The DR and Resist are WHAT they resistant to and WHICH weapon types are reduced.

The Kill the Brain quality would override the rule that they are destroyed at 0.

The idea with the DR and Resists is thinking about HP more abstract. You stab a zombie? Doesn't bother them too much. I am trying to keep that image of a "shot" to the head (piercing being the only weapons zombies are not resistant to). The attack should be "through" the skull. Of course you can still brain or cleave their skull, but piercing seems like the most effective way to do it.

The fast healing is more to get them back on their feet. A zombie with 1 HP is still a zombie. Its still an actions that has to be spent to deal with it. It can still spread its disease. Honestly, I would probably have the zombie play opossum for a couple round. It would also increase as I increase the HD of the zombies.

The main idea is numbers. Waves of zombies to be avoided, or kill on the run, and in rare cases fight directly.

[Whale_Cancer]

TheDux wrote:

My bad, I did the DR and Resist wrong. The DR and Resist are WHAT they resistant to and WHICH weapon types are reduced.

So, does anything overcome their DR? If not, it should just be DR 5/-

TheDux wrote:

The Kill the Brain quality would override the rule that they are destroyed at 0.

This should be made explicit in the ability text. e.g. Unlike normal undead, cinematic zombies are not destroyed when they reach 0 hp. Cinematic zombies are only destroyed once ... [insert condition here; it's not entirely clear how to destroy their brain. Will 1 damage with a called shot to the head destroy their brain? Does this kill them or just stop the fast healing?

TheDux wrote:

The fast healing is more to get them back on their feet. A zombie with 1 HP is still a zombie. Its still an actions that has to be spent to deal with it. It can still spread its disease. Honestly, I would probably have the zombie play opossum for a couple round. It would also increase as I increase the HD of the zombies.

The main idea is numbers. Waves of zombies to be avoided, or kill on the run, and in rare cases fight directly.

That sounds like it will be a book keeping hassle. Having a dozen zombies each fast healing 1 hp a turn. Why not something easier to keep track of? Each time they are reduced to 0 hp through a means other than a shot to the head, they get up after - say - 1d4+1 rounds and heal to half hit points?

I wouldn't want to have to track all that fast healing with a creature meant to be used in swarms when the PCs have access to AoE damage.

[TheDux]

Yeah, the DR line I was still just making notes trying to see what I wanted and didn't want and formatting the post got in the way of double checking everything. The head however would be DR/piercing.

The zombie is destroyed once the brain is destroyed. That 1 is all that is needed to kill it, if you can make the shot. Really, I could get rid of the "head" HP and defenses and just make a special kill circumstance when you make a called shot on the head or land a crit.

And yes, I am going to switch that out for fast healing. That is a much better idea. Thanks!

Defense Changes:

Defense
AC 12, touch 10, flat-footed 12 (+2 natural)
hp (Body) 12 (2d8+3), fast healing 1
DR 5/-; Immune undead traits, cold; Resist acid 5, electricity 5, fire 5, and sonic 5

Kill The Brain Changes:

Unlike normal undead, zombies are not destroyed when they reach 0 hp. Zombies are only destroyed by a critical hit or a called shot to the the head (-5 to attack roll). A zombie that has not been destroyed but reaches 0 hp is reanimated after 1d4+1 rounds with 1/2 their total hp.

[Velcro Zipper]

The thing about most movie zombies that makes people avoid them is their overwhelming numbers. You don't necessarily need to make a new sort of zombie. You could just squeeze more of them into an area by making them a swarm.

You lull the players into a false sense of security by having a few easy to kill individual shamblers stumbling around and then hit them with a mob if they take the bait. By adding the Troop subtype to a pack of, say, 16 zombies you get something like this:

Mob of Zombies:

Human Zombie CR 10

XP 9600

NE Gargantuan Troop of Medium undead (Troop subtype)

Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0

Defense

AC 12, touch 10, flat-footed 12 (+2 natural)

hp 288 (32d8+138)

Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +3

DR 5/slashing; Immune: undead traits, immune to trip, bull rush, single target spells

Offense

Speed 30 ft.

Melee: Troop Attack (automatically hits) (5d6 damage)

Statistics

Str 17, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 10

Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 14

Feats Toughness(B)

Special Qualities: staggered, vulnerable to area effect spells, not subject to flanking

Chaos of Combat: Because of the chaos of combat, spellcasting or concentrating on spells within the area of a troop or within its reach requires a caster level check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills that involve patience and concentration requires a successful DC 20 Will save.

If you want to give your zombies the ability to infect people, you can just add Zombie Rot to the mob or make it a mob of Plague Zombies.

It's an idea anyway.

[Tom S 820]

Why Resist 5 acid, electricity, fire, and sonic? This is over kill

Why 2 DR? Just go with 1 keep it simple DR 5/slashing

What about coup de grace?

Flesh eating(SU)when Zombie eat the flesh of a living being it fast heal go up to 5 for as long HD of the being it eat.