Goblin Squad Member
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This topic was originally birthed out of the barter thread, but instead of replying there, and pulling that thread off-topic, I thought I'd place it in its own thread. I'd rather risk that this topic gets little action and spirals down to the bottom of the forums to die a lonely death than derail someone else's thread.
This began with a reply from Urman:
(as of now,) It looks like those of us who do not attack unflagged characters frequently will be able to gain rep just going about our daily business.
On one hand, that's very heartening, though also rather passive (i.e. I'm being rewarded for doing nothing - or at least doing nothing "bad"). I know the game is, in large measure, meant to be about PvP (in all its forms), so the fact that the most active way to gain positive reputation is to participate in PvP in acceptable ways (i.e. flying the appropriate flags) is not surprising. I do wish there was some non-PvP oriented way to actively gain reputation. I know they don't want a system that's easily gamed (so that jerks don't randomly kill and grief people and then do "X" to quickly build their reputation back up), so I would expect an active, non-PvP based reputation gain mechanic would need to be challenging, perhaps risky, or requiring as strict an adherence to a particular role as the PvP flags require. It's just rather difficult to think of what that could be while keeping it less "gameable".
If the reputation system is meant to be a visible measure of how players affect their fellow players, and thereby the community, it would be nice if positive community actions could be rewarded with positive reputation. I'm thinking of something like the person who donates the funds to build a public library, the builder who freely gives of his time/skills/tools to build a community playground, or the physician who travels to an economically challenged region and provides free medical care. How could these services equate to actively gaining positive reputation in something like PFO?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that the title should differentiate between PVE and PVP Combat or use a totally different acronym such as PiP (Player interaction with Player).
I agree that helpful player interactions should bestow reputation benefits. I'd rather this then some automatic increase that requires nothing more than inaction. The reputation score is supposedly reflective of player to player interactions, within or outside of the rules of the game.
I could see a number of different flags that could be used, as part of Non Combat PiP Flags.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On a related note, i asked the following in another thread :
The enforcer, champion and traveller flag end, so far with the following sentence
◦The player earns reputation at the end of the first hour this flag is active. This award increases each hour up to a set maximum. This count resets whenever the bonuses from the flag reset.
i guess that you can fly a pvp-flag everywhere. if so, you can fly it in a building in your settlement to replenish lost reputation with little to no risk.
depending on the amount of reputation you gain this could be problematic.I hope the max. gain per day is somehow(as in max 10-20% of curent Rep) bound to your present Reputation. with negativ Reputation giving just the minimum gain per hour(or even day) of one Point;)
PiP: This i like. Very much so.
You get recognition for or resocialisation through community services. both great:)
1 PiP-Flag i´d like to propose = Teacher. To be flown while working as a guide.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh well, I got a phone call right after reading your issue with the title, got further distracted after that, and now it's 1 hour 1 minute past the initial posting time, so the title stays.
My reason for using "Non-PvP" is that short of gaining positive reputation via passive acquisition like Urman mentioned, the most likely way to gain it is by using the current flag system, which is geared towards PvP.
What I'm thinking of is a system where actions you could take, skills you put to use, or goods and coin you spend for the good of the community could somehow equate to positive reputation gain. The crux of that determination (that it was truly for the good of the whole community) would be your forgoing any other kind of compensation for your actions other than a reputation gain (e.g. not earning coin, not benefiting only your settlement, etc.).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The enforcer, champion and traveller flag end, so far with the following sentence
◦The player earns reputation at the end of the first hour this flag is active. This award increases each hour up to a set maximum. This count resets whenever the bonuses from the flag reset.
i guess that you can fly a pvp-flag everywhere. if so, you can fly it in a building in your settlement to replenish lost reputation with little to no risk.
depending on the amount of reputation you gain this could be problematic.
I hope the max. gain per day is somehow(as in max 10-20% of curent Rep) bound to your present Reputation. with negativ Reputation giving just the minimum gain per hour(or even day) of one Point;)
The problem with this is the fact that you can enable it and then chill out in a NON PVP environment and earn that reputation. It allows you to grief all morning and then recover while you sleep.
Why are only the good, lawful and neutral flags given such a bonus?
But, this debate is for the other threads. This thread is specifically dealing with Players interacting with other Players (PiP) in a non combat nature.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Hobs, from what I understand of your intentions, I think you'll probably get most of your +Rep directly from other players, who wish to reward you for your efforts.
Nihimon,
That's one way, yes. However, I would hate to cost my fellow community members their positive reputation, since theirs goes down to give some away - doesn't it?
I have some other ideas, but my son needs more Dad time. I'll post more later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why are only the good, lawful and neutral flags given such a bonus?
But, this debate is for the other threads. This thread is specifically dealing with Players interacting with other Players (PiP) in a non combat nature.
Well, everybody except the chaotic evils has access to those passive gains, and chaotics can gain rep through Outlaw with successful SAD, which no one else can do. And everyone, even people who don't flag, will gain rep just from not losing rep.
I don't think we should have big reputation gains for PiP. I'm willing to reconsider this if I see a system that is strongly built against being gamed, including how people gift rep to each other. Reputation, as GW has defined it so far, isn't so much about player-to-player reputation as much as it is a way to identify people who frequently attack unflagged players.
They could rename it, imo, to remove confusion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They could rename it, imo, to remove confusion.
I agree there should be a different name for following the game rules, than reputation.
"Dropping the Ban Hammer Score" is what it should be called.
"Heroic" and "Trustworthy" and "Notorious" would work. Each granting perks within their own societies.
A CE character would not want to have a high "Heroic" or even "Trustworthy" score, but would desire a very high "Notorious" score.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Urman,
I'm equally concerned with avoiding a system that could be gamed. Personally, I'm not a fan of the "gifting reputation" idea. Especially if we can truly log in with several characters at once, nothing would seem to stop a jerk from using his reputation gaining alts to gift his griefing character positive reputation and avoid the intended consequences of his actions. If they blocked reputation gifting within the same account, I'm sure he could find a buddy to swap reputation points with...too often, jerks have jerky friends.
I also would want to avoid a system that simply allows you to buy positive reputation, whether that's with coin, goods, expenditure of time, etc. I give up "X" and I get reputation. Somewhere in there, the "benefits the community" part has to come into play.
So far, we don't know what community accessible facilities will be available in the game. By these, I mean open to the entire community without needing to be affiliated with or accepted within a player settlement. If you could do something only for your own settlement to actively earn reputation, I don't consider that "for the good of the whole community." What if, once the baseline community facilities were established, there would be a way to improve them for everyone's use, though still keeping them below the functionality of player settlements (I understand that we want to keep player settlements better than starter towns in most ways).
So...if a communal facility is (for lack of another term) tier 1 in quality and only player settlement facilities are tier 2 and above in caliber, what if donations of coin, raw materials and dedicated skills (e.g a smith of a certain skill willing to attach himself to a starter town smithy rather than a player settlement smithy) could move it temporarily to tier 1.5 for the betterment of all who use that facility? If no one is feeling philanthropic, that particular facility still functions at its normal tier 1 efficiency. If someone is nice enough to donate, all benefit and the good deed is rewarded with positive reputation.
For instance, the smithy works a little better under the direction of a helpful craftsman. The public road is repaired more regularly through donations of crushed stone and offers everyone a slight, short term movement bonus. The auction house is gifted an endowment to improve trade and offers a short term reduction on auction fees (lasting only as long as it takes for the total reductions to equal the endowment sum). Something like that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So far, we don't know what community accessible facilities will be available in the game. By these, I mean open to the entire community without needing to be affiliated with or accepted within a player settlement. If you could do something only for your own settlement to actively earn reputation, I don't consider that "for the good of the whole community." What if, once the baseline community facilities were established, there would be a way to improve them for everyone's use, though still keeping them below the functionality of player settlements (I understand that we want to keep player settlements better than starter towns in most ways).
So...if a communal facility is (for lack of another term) tier 1 in quality and only player settlement facilities are tier 2 and above in caliber, what if donations of coin, raw materials and dedicated skills (e.g a smith of a certain skill willing to attach himself to a starter town smithy rather than a player settlement smithy) could move it temporarily to tier 1.5 for the betterment of all who use that facility? If no one is feeling philanthropic, that particular facility still functions at its normal tier 1 efficiency. If someone is nice enough to donate, all benefit and the good deed is rewarded with positive reputation.
I like that idea. It's like anticipating and encouraging things like EVE University.
edit: On more consideration, that donation shouldn't get you reputation. (Low) reputation is a measure of how much you attack unflagged characters. High reputation is like the sign outside a construction site: "32 days with no accidents." But more about killings than accidents.
But if you were to upgrade and operate the forge in the NPC town? That could definitely be something that could earn faction with that settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I proposed a new flag in the other flag thread called Duellist. Not only could this be used for those who want to go around challenging others to honourable duels, it could also be used as part of PiP. For roleplayers this would allow characters to simulate both testing and training in martial skills. For instance if you wanted to join the Empyrean Order, you may be required to duel one of the trainer characters to see what level of skill your character possesses. It could also be connected to a training ground (special ‘building’ that a settlement would need to buy) which allows the training of massed combat, so characters can practice using cohesion and other combat skills.
• When a duel is accepted the challenged player acquires the duellist flag
• A wager can be placed on the outcome of the duel (reputation, coin or item). If a wager is desired by both players, then both parties must accept the other parties offer.
• No reputation is lost for defeating a challenged player
• The winner of the duel doesn’t gain negative flags for defeating the challenged player
• The loser of the duel doesn’t die or drop a corpse bag. They defeated player recovers fully, moments after the duel
• If duels are allowed within a settlement, then no NPC guard is summoned upon the defeat of one of the players.
• If a player outside of the duel assist one of the duellist, then he gains the involved flag and loses reputation for interfering. The interfering player can’t offer or accept a duel for up to one hour.
• A record of all duels are linked to each character and can be viewed by other players.
• A duellist can’t challenge the same player within a specified period of time.
Design Notes:
Rules would need to be established around how often two characters can duel, particularly in the case of wagering reputation points, to remove reputation farming from one character to another. It would also be cool if a characters duellist scoreboard somehow ranked the overall combat ability between the two parties. For instance if a fighter(8) character always challengers characters with crafting skills and little to no combat ability, it would be obvious that he might be farming reputation from his buddies, and not a serious duellist.
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Goblin Squad Member
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edit: On more consideration, that donation shouldn't get you reputation.
If you're willing to donate coin, raw materials, or your time/skills for the benefit of all, why wouldn't any of those be equally valid. True, you might also be benefiting from the change that you've caused, but given the boon to others, I'm not sure I'd hold that against the person being civic minded enough to donate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Hobs, I think it would be great to have some means/measure of recognizing philanthropy, contributions to player settlements, contributions to NPC settlements, etc. I just don't think that the counter we're calling reputation is the right place for it. Reputation, as it's been defined so far, is the measure of how much we do or don't kill unflagged characters. I don't think we should mix the "contributed to the game with lots of PvE activities" and "killed unflagged people" on the same counter, lest it hides more than it shows.
So I like the idea. Doing good works should contribute to ____ (something normal folk might call reputation). Doing good works shouldn't be counted on a honor-dishonor axis (which GW calls reputation).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem with this is the fact that you can enable it and then chill out in a NON PVP environment and earn that reputation. It allows you to grief all morning and then recover while you sleep.
I would really hope that the PvP flags cannot be flown within non PvP areas (NPC settlements?). Either force them to be dropped, or allow them to be flown but receive no bonuses from them.
I'm equally concerned with avoiding a system that could be gamed. Personally, I'm not a fan of the "gifting reputation" idea. Especially if we can truly log in with several characters at once, nothing would seem to stop a jerk from using his reputation gaining alts to gift his griefing character positive reputation and avoid the intended consequences of his actions. If they blocked reputation gifting within the same account, I'm sure he could find a buddy to swap reputation points with...too often, jerks have jerky friends.
Definitely block reputation trading between characters on the same account, but potentially only allow a 'trade' between the same two characters every 7 days or so. It is always going to be gamed, but put some basic roadblocks in place to make it harder.
edit: On more consideration, that donation shouldn't get you reputation. (Low) reputation is a measure of how much you attack unflagged characters. High reputation is like the sign outside a construction site: "32 days with no accidents." But more about killings than accidents.
Except the traveler flag earns you reputation and is not oriented towards PKing. Reputation seems to currently be an all encompassing metric, PKing or otherwise. Unless that changes, I agree with Hobs in that those characters not wanting to fly the traveler flag need some sort of method to gain reputation. The character to character gifting mechanism might be the solution, but I'm not sold on that until I see it in operation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Urman,
I understand. Unfortunately, with so many intended systems still to flesh out, I doubt a new one just to provide active positive reputation gain won't be considered for some time. Likely then, good deeds done for the sake of the community will remain in the realm of "done for their own sake", which I can certainly live with. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Except the traveler flag earns you reputation and is not oriented towards PKing.
Jiminy,
As I understand it, though the traveler flag doesn't provide combat bonuses like some of the PvP flags, it does provide faster travel and increased encumbrance which would seem to put it at odds with the Outlaw flag, so though merchants wearing the traveler flag wouldn't necessarily be PKing, they do seem to be involved with a heightened potential for PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know you also played UO, Hobs, so I imagine PFO will be similar in that there will be characters that have a fame (reputation) gained by word of mouth which is generated by their actions.
Not everything can be measured by stats/metrics ingame. Though in the case of PFO, I would like to have a higher reputation so I can 'hand out' rewards to newbies when I see them doing something out of the ordinary or RPing well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Except the traveler flag earns you reputation and is not oriented towards PKing.Jiminy,
As I understand it, though the traveler flag doesn't provide combat bonuses like some of the PvP flags, it does provide faster travel and increased encumbrance which would seem to put it at odds with the Outlaw flag, so though merchants wearing the traveler flag wouldn't necessarily be PKing, they do seem to be involved with a heightened potential for PvP.
Oh, I totally agree. That is why I said PKing rather than PvPing. Flying it still gives you bonuses to be used against outlaws or the like, but none of those bonuses make you very good at killing a character. It was a counter to the statement by Urman that reputation was a measure of 'killing unflagged characters'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know you also played UO, Hobs, so I imagine PFO will be similar in that there will be characters that have a fame (reputation) gained by word of mouth which is generated by their actions.
Not everything can be measured by stats/metrics ingame. Though in the case of PFO, I would like to have a higher reputation so I can 'hand out' rewards to newbies when I see them doing something out of the ordinary or RPing well.
I agree with this, and with Bluddwolf's Ban Hammer terminology.
It's harder to game actual word-of-mouth reputation than any game mechanic. Slander and propaganda are certainly possible, but they require a lot more work than paying for two accounts, and setting up a reputation point trading circle with other two account holding ne'er-do-wells.