Goblin Squad Member
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There has been a lot of discussion aimed around bandits and how flags should be affecting given mechanics or who they expect to fly flags and when. And a lot of us folks who disfavor PvP crying back against them. This topic is aimed at my fellow PvP-adverse players.
In order to foster better relations between ourselves and those of us who would engage us in PvP despite our lack of desire, it would benefit us to form a code of ethics that we adhere to in relation to flying or not flying flags. If we can act reliably within game terms and not abuse the system then bandits are likely to treat us better, regardless of whether we give into SADs or fight to defend ourselves. If we try to game the system and use delay tactics, they will learn to kill us quickly and move on because they will assume we have some dirty tricks up our sleeves.
I would propose the following to be included.
1) Expect somebody to engage you in PvP regardless of your flags. The further you become from town, the more you should expect this.
2) If you were not flagged and were not issued a SAD, bounties and death curses are encouraged. This is the lowest form of behavior and we do not wish to promote it.
3) If you were not flagged and were issued a SAD but rejected it, then expect a fight to ensue. We should agree to what we consider a reasonable SAD. Reasonable is a personal decision that should not be made en masse. Only the victim of the SAD can define reasonable for themselves. For me, reasonable is 0% so I expect to be fought. But I will reject swiftly. Make your decision or counter-offer quickly. If you fight and lose, bounties may be placed at your discretion. Bounties are effectively player-generated quests and adds to content. Avoid excessively renewing the bounty. Death curses should be avoided. The bandits were kind enough to SAD you first. Unless the request was extraordinarily high as a way to game the rep system then this courtesy should be respected by not placing death curses.
4) If you were flagged and were either SAD'd or Directly Attacked, please limit bounties to zero or one time. One time is acceptable to generate content for other players. However, it is inappropriate to repeatedly punish a bandit for PvPing you when you asked for it by flying the flag. Death curses should be abhorred in this scenario. Using them is highly discouraged.
5) Advertising yourself as a non-PvPer by not flying a flag in order to coerce bandits to SAD you, so that they can avoid a reputation hit, to give you time for backup to arrive is low. This should be considered abuse of the flagging system. If non-PvP flagged players repeatedly abuse the advance notice a SAD grants, then the bandits will stop offering them to us, kill us, and take everything. If you are non-PvP and issued a SAD then Accept it, Counter-Offer, or Reject it swiftly.
6) If you are baiting bandits, serving decoy, or otherwise assisting a current bandit-hunting operation in some way please flag yourself. Issuing bounties or death curses in this situation is fairly poor sportsmanship. Avoid doing so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The bandits were kind enough to SAD you first.
It is not out of "kindness", but rather pure self-interest - the mechanics punish them if they don't.
4) If you were flagged and were either SAD'd or Directly Attacked, please limit bounties to zero or one time.
If you were flagged, I'm fairly certain you can't issue a Bounty or a Death Curse.
5) Advertising yourself as a non-PvPer by not flying a flag in order to coerce bandits to SAD you, so that they can avoid a reputation hit, to give you time for backup to arrive is low.
I completely disagree.
Stealing from me is low. Suggesting that I'm actually being low by using every means at my disposal to stop you from stealing from me is kind of low, too.
If non-PvP flagged players repeatedly abuse the advance notice a SAD grants, then the bandits will stop offering them to us, kill us, and take everything.
And gain a very Low Reputation doing so, which serves them right.
6) If you are baiting bandits, serving decoy, or otherwise assisting a current bandit-hunting operation in some way please flag yourself. Issuing bounties or death curses in this situation is fairly poor sportsmanship. Avoid doing so.
Again, I completely disagree.
Combatting Banditry is as valid a playstyle as Banditry itself. Suggesting that the Bandits are the noble ones, and those who don't properly submit are somehow ignoble is very perverse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are non-PvP and issued a SAD then Accept it, Counter-Offer, or Reject it swiftly.
I agree with you, except this part. Outlaws are going to flag and deflag in minutes (however fast they can), depending on which is most advantageous to them. Honest nonflagged persons can take as much time as they wish to make their decisions, in hope that help does arrive. If the Outlaws get nervous - well, you were at risk at "Stand".
Note also that the longer you draw out your own hijacking, the longer before someone else is robbed. It you try to draw it out longer than it would take to kill you - well, then it gets dangerous for you, indeed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2) If you were not flagged and were not issued a SAD, bounties and death curses are encouraged. This is the lowest form of behavior and we do not wish to promote it.
I'm sorry, but if your walking through the woods, and I see you may have something of value,mainly gear, there's a good chance I will kill you (attempt) to take it. My character wont be a bandit, but he will be evil, so no SAD will come from me. I'm not going to say the death curse and bounties aren't encouraged, they are. but to say that it's the lowest form of behavior is incorrect. It's part of the game. Don't travel alone if you can't defend yourself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally find banditry very undesirable in the game as a whole. But the devs want it to have their place. My current position comes as something of a compromise after hearing some of the reasons as to why our bandit population wishes to punish those who do not fly flags more severely.
The problem as I see it, is that unless the SAD mechanic is significantly changed in the flag revamp, then bandits are going to merely come up and make 100% SADs to unflagged individuals in order to pressure them into flagging more often. And they will never take Rep Loss from it. If the SAD mechanic would allow for minor rep loss
My hope was that acting with honor in the face of dishonorable situations would assist in getting them to give up that hardline stance.
But you may be correct. My thinking may have been naive.
As to Bounties, I'm not sure where it says the PvP had to be non-consensual. As to Death Curses, I did find it. It is mentioned death curses are for non-consensual death in a third blog post separately from the one that describes flags and the one that describes bounties and death curses.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm sorry, but if your walking through the woods, and I see you may have something of value,mainly gear, there's a good chance I will kill you (attempt) to take it. My character wont be a bandit, but he will be evil, so no SAD will come from me. I'm not going to say the death curse and bounties aren't encouraged, they are. but to say that it's the lowest form of behavior is incorrect. It's part of the game. Don't travel alone if you can't defend yourself.
2) If you were not flagged and were not issued a SAD, bounties and death curses are encouraged. This is the lowest form of behavior and we do not wish to promote it.
Perhaps lowest might have been the wrong term, but it was the right term in this category. If it were not low behavior, it would not be evil. And you would not suffer Reputation loss for such behavior.
I concur that travelling alone is a bad idea. But making oneself an easy victim does not make the crime any more okay.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, it's possible I miss understood you. Yes, it is an evil, and chaotic act within the game. With my character being Evil, Probably NE, I will accept this. I assumed (horrible thing to do, im sorry :() that you meant it was a low form of playing, and as players we should not accept it (with the "we should not promote it" part).
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are non-PvP and issued a SAD then Accept it, Counter-Offer, or Reject it swiftly.I agree with you, except this part. Outlaws are going to flag and deflag in minutes (however fast they can), depending on which is most advantageous to them. Honest nonflagged persons can take as much time as they wish to make their decisions, in hope that help does arrive. If the Outlaws get nervous - well, you were at risk at "Stand".
Note also that the longer you draw out your own hijacking, the longer before someone else is robbed. It you try to draw it out longer than it would take to kill you - well, then it gets dangerous for you, indeed.
I highly doubt that the amount of time to refuse an offer is going to be terribly long. Just like in real life, you generally don't see a mugging or any other form of robbery where the criminals will stand around for a half hour waiting for someone to search for his wallet.
It does need to be enough time by game mechanics for a player to make a rational choice etc... but it will almost certainly not be more than 5 minutes at the very high end IMO. It does need to be more than enough time for the person to clearly read the demand, heck even enough time to grab a weapon or 2 out of cargo if he's planning to refuse. But the idea that say the mechanics will allow someone to stall for 15+ minutes waiting for help on the other side of the world to arrive, I think would be a rather huge mechanical flaw, if said mechanics are allowed. Not only for bandits, but for bodyguards as well. Why hire a bodyguard if it only protects you from the lowest rep, CE bandits after all. Otherwise you just get their card, hire them if you are given an SAD.
That being said, I don't really see that as extremely unethical for a merchant to use the maximum time given, admitted if I were going to be a CN bandit group that primarally focuses on using the SaD, I would almost certainly want to work with a partner organization of scum to drop names of groups that do stall for time and recruit backup, and pay them to rob them before they get the chance, until they change tactics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I get what you intend here Lifedragn. It is a noble effort. However I have to disagree. Each of us, individually, will have to decide what we will do in those situations. There will likely be many variables involved.
As for me, my character will resist, trick, fight banditry any way that I can. I believe that our resident bandit population already knows this. It is how I have chosen to role with this character. ;)
"Millions for Defense, not one copper for tribute!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Lifedrgn
Although Nihimon is partially correct in saying our issuing of a SAD is not out of "kindness", it is generous considering the situations in which we would not issue them.
When we issue a SAD, we have already decided we could likely defeat you in combat. We have also decided to give up the advantage of a surprise attack. We have given up taking 75% of what you have and you losing (destruction) the other 25%. Instead we will request a certain amount. You still have the power to accept it or reject it, that choice is yours.
Once we establish recognition of each other, you will find that the SADs come more frequently and perhaps even at a lower rate. We will make mental note so as not to overly abuse you, if we spot other unknown targets.
We are not in the business to put you out of business. We are in the business to make a quick coin, have some risk thrown in for the thrill and to have a fun time doing it.
For those that offer nothing but resistance in refusing SADs, while unflagged, we will accept not getting the reputation boost, in exchange for 75% of your loot. My understanding is that we will not end up on your enemies list for purposes of the Death Curse, because you became a legitimate target after rejecting the SAD. If that on the other hand turns out not to be true, you can hire bounties or levy Death Curses, that us your ability within the mechanics to do so. We will respond with Assassination contracts in return, which is also within the mechanics for us to do so.
The next time we encounter that individual in the wilderness, they will have that unpleasant feeling of being observed, mere moments before the ambush is sprung. Our Outlaw - Assassins will strike swift and our revenge will be complete.
Some may say this is our thrusting PvP onto others, or it punishes those that do not wish to flag. That us not the objective.
We in the UnNamed Company are providing you all the content of the "Bad Guy". Not as brutal psycho - killers, but more like mobster thugs. So far, no other company has stepped forward to provide that content. Heck, so far the only PvP that we have heard about is the anti banditry patrols. I'm beginning to wonder if it were not for us, there might not be any PvP content at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm beginning to wonder if it were not for us, there might not be any PvP content at all.
I fully expect the "bad guys" to outnumber the "Good guys" 2 to 1. Of course, a lot of those bad guys will get frustrated with the way the game punishes them for being jerks, but I will be very surprised if there's a shortage of "content"...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm also sure if there is a lack of content due to lack of bad guys, GW will add some temporary incentives to attract players.
Either way, my thanks for offering your invaluable services to the shiny paladins and enforcers, Bludd!
Hey, it will be fun all around. Bludd's statement is accurate. Lifedragn also has some good ideas.
Urman, drawn out SAD times will also be kept track of with the rest of what Bludd said. At least for the UNC. Dont think we do not have scouts out around us.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I expect that the SAD time GW gives us *might* be something like 2 minutes or even just one minute. So when the SAD screen pops up, there's time for a short bio break. :)
@Tuoweit: Agreed. A year out, I think discussing how quickly one should roll over for a big dog is discussing unknowns. But when the big dog understands what you're saying, he's just going to work out ways to make you roll over faster.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The whole idea of having societal rules for how to interact with someone who breaks societal rules is on shaky ground, IMO, and setting yourself up for even worse when they break your new rules.
Tuoweit, do you actually live in the game? Do our real world societal rules cross over into a game? Do you have any concept of what a Role Playing game is?
The game world societal rules of the River Kingdoms is that banditry is praiseworthy and that you "Have What You Hold". If you can't hold it, you are not entitled to it, we are. If we can not hold it, we were not entitled to it, those who took it from us are entitled.
If your hour's worth of gathering, turns into our minute's worth of combat and looting, that was both your choice (to decline the SAD) and your fault (for not holding what you had).
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Goblin Squad Member
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You should be thanking him!
Yes, there should be rose pedals tossed in the road, in front of us, before the UnNamed Company passes through your settlement, on our way to spend our gold (formerly yours) in your taverns.... Who says we don't give back to the community.. "Shop Local and buy Made in The River Kingdoms" is our second motto.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One word comes to mind when I read this
"Millions for Defense, not one Copper for Tribute!"
...
Unsustainable
You will eventually give in, become broke, or give up. This is the nature of the Open World PVP MMO.
I hope you manage to cope with the reality that, the River Kingdoms will be a dangerous place, especially for those who think to travel alone. Look at the response to the Solo question that the devs gave.... They laughed at the thought.
If you hire many to protect a cargo, and that cost is more than what we would have asked in a SAD, you lose. If you offer less than what our SAD would cost, your guards will realise they could make more if they turned to become bandits themselves. Hired guards or bandits, it's all about the gold and both will interchange their professions to chase that gold.
Player Looting in an MMO is not a morality question, it's just a game play style.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You will eventually give in, become broke, or give up.
Well, that's certainly expected for one of us. I'm doubtful it will be me :)
If you hire many to protect a cargo, and that cost is more than what we would have asked in a SAD, you lose.
You do realize that the "cost" of "hiring guards" is likely to be negative, since we'll be wanting to provide organized activities for our members, right?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf
See, you assume that the whole world (player base in this case) has as rotten an outlook as you do. Very sad...
You will eventually see how things will turn out, once settlements look to become nations.
Each of the settlements will get a hex, from the land rush (presumably). In order to expand to become a nation, they will have to take over other settlement hexes, adjacent to theirs. No settlement conquest, no player nations... simple fact.
Now look that the example I put in the UNC recruitment thread, I'll summarize it here:
A settlement can send out a harvester to collect 1 hour's worth of material, and return it to the settlement. Or a settlement can send out raiders and take an hour's worth of gathering from a rival, in less than a minute.
I know both Pax and TEO plan on having nations. Which ever one opens their doors to the use of Privateers (state sponsored bandits), will have the edge in achieving their national goals.
Your best defense against bandits / privateers, is if they are part of your nation. Your best service to your nation, is to return to your settlement with as much materials that you can.
This "Millions for Defense, not one Copper for Tribute!" serves the "Me" and not even all that well. SADs serves all.....
This PSA was brought to you by The UnNamed Company
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Goblin Squad Member
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The game world societal rules of the River Kingdoms is that banditry is praiseworthy and that you "Have What You Hold". If you can't hold it, you are not entitled to it, we are. If we can not hold it, we were not entitled to it, those who took it from us are entitled.
Bluddwolf, I salute your optimism. You have an amazing capacity to draw remarkable inspiration from the smallest glimmers of possibility. I genuinely hope you don't live in perpetual disappointment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You do realize that the "cost" of "hiring guards" is likely to be negative, since we'll be wanting to provide organized activities for our members, right?
For every group of guards you place on guard duty, that is the fewer you will have to be privateers and to bring home more resources than they would have protected.
Easily 10 rounds (i minute) worth of combat can net you an hour's worth of gathering.
Let the luck of sheer numbers protect your many caravans, like the turtle hatchlings making their first passage to the sea. Some will be killed, others will get SAD's, but many or even most will get through untouched.
Meanwhile, you have your privateers, hunting for your rival's caravans and harvesting sites.
In the end, ask yourself, which is better economically and developmentally for your settlement / nation?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Each of the settlements will get a hex, from the land rush (presumably). In order to expand to become a nation, they will have to take over other settlement hexes, adjacent to theirs. No settlement conquest, no player nations... simple fact.
Now where has this been stated? Last I knew, multiple settlements could agree to form a nation without need for PvP. Nor has adjacency been spelled out as a prerequisite to nation building.
Granted, there will certainly be settlement and national warfare for others reasons, if not this.
I know both Pax and TEO plan on having nations. Which ever one opens their doors to the use of Privateers (state sponsored bandits), will have the edge in achieving their national goals.
Your best defense against bandits / privateers, is if they are part of your nation. Your best service to your nation, is to return to your settlement with as much materials that you can.
This "Millions for Defense, not one Copper for Tribute!" serves the "Me" and not even all that well. SADs serves all.....
This PSA was brought to you by The UnNamed Company
TEO is Neutral Good aligned. Chaotic Good bandits and privateers are acceptable to us so long as they restrict targets to Evil or Hostile-Declared targets (such as enemies in a war or bandits that target our friends and allies).
The best defense against bandits / privateers is to make them unprofitable in your domain through any means necessary. Catering to them in the fashion you describe is a middle-ground for settlements not strong enough to control bandits along their trade routes.
SADs serve the bandits. And the bandits serve themselves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unless the bandits are privateers and they focus their efforts on the settlement's rivals, in exchange for access to the settlement or nation's training facilities.
Besides what if the settlements adjacent to you refuse to join you in creating a nation? Will TEO be denied its Kingdom? Will Pax allow itself to remain just one settlement?
I don't know what the Seventh Veils aspirations are, but they have not indicated anything along the lines of a nation or kingdom.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nor has adjacency been spelled out as a prerequisite to nation building.
Actually, Ryan's pretty much stated it outright, although this is a pretty old post and their thinking might have evolved in a number of ways...
I want the Settlements in a Player Nation to be contiguous to stop people from dominating huge swaths of land but only occupying a tiny portion of what they control.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bludd,
You know I've said often that I think bandits are a needed role in PFO, but it's starting to sound like you believe "winning the game" will be determined by how many people become bandits or privateers or whatever other name we have for taking other people's stuff. I hope we're not losing sight of the RPG part of MMORPG. People will play merchants and guards and every other thing simply because they enjoy the role, not because everything they do in the game is bent upon winning. If that's what the focus of this game will really boil down to in the end - that you're either going to need to play only what's "economically and developmentally" best (which you seem to think means we all should be bandits/privateers) or lose, then I'm not interested. That's one of the reasons I don't play Eve...to me, the whole game seemed to be about getting just the right skills to be the most competitive player without hardly any role-play at all. If that's what PFO becomes - that you can only really succeed in the game if you play the most ruthlessly competitive character - I'll be looking for another sandbox.
To spread a little sunshine, I don't think that's all that this game will boil down to, so I'm not really as gloomy as I might have sounded in the first paragraph. :)
*Happily runs off towards the distant piles of sand with his shovel and pail*
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't know what the Seventh Veils aspirations are, but they have not indicated anything along the lines of a nation or kingdom.
It really brings everything you say into question when you're so comfortable speaking so authoritatively when you're so wrong.
I am trying to shape our community to fit the game mechanics for being first a settlement and later a nation.
So far, The Seventh Veil is already committed to sponsoring more than one Chartered Company, and even to helping Shadow-Haven construct their own Settlement, even if it's not a part of our "official" Player Nation.
The Seventh Veil is primarily a meta-game organization. That is, we exist first and foremost outside of the game. We are not a Chartered Company, nor a Settlement, nor even a Player Nation. We may very well end up organizing many of each of those things. It's too soon to say for sure.
If at all possible, we intend to have a settlement and/or nation of our own.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If that's what the focus of this game will really boil down to in the end - that you're either going to need to play only what's "economically and developmentally" best (...) or lose, then I'm not interested.
If every death will result in a loss of 25% of unthreaded items, and some damage to all threaded items, we can't all be playing PvP all of the time. A settlement/nation that ignores harvesting and trade is likely to starve itself. I imagine there will be room in that sandbox for PvP and for harvesting and crafting and nation building. Even storytelling, I imagine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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TEO will grow to the stage that its memberships and alliances dictate that we grow. Player Nation is indeed our long-term target. But we have no intention to force our will upon our neighbors unless necessary. If it comes to the point where we are completely surrounded by factions unwilling to form a nation with us, our first endeavor will be to examine their core principles. Evil settlements may be subject to being forcibly removed. Good settlements may be negotiated with. Even if unwilling to bend, then perhaps our allies that wish to form a kingdom with us already have a chunk of land, so we go build another settlement there and leave our existing one as a resource-gathering commonwealth.
TEO is here to combat evil (IC) and bullies (OOC). We have no need to take a combat-first approach to Good and Neutral groups and we have no qualms approaching the table of diplomacy with a respectful and humble mindset. There are many routes to nationhood. It is improper to assume that our only path is force of arms.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf, you also give the impression that you think we'd be better off taking our "guards" and sending them out to do their own Harvesting.
Have you forgotten the Gathering mechanic? That's the large-scale resource acquisition that spawns PvE hazards. We'll need to be organized about guarding those while the Gathering is going on.
We won't generally be trying to make a living as solo Harvesters. We're going for the big hauls, and we'll have plenty of protection through the whole process.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Areks-PaxAeternum:
A kingdom is a social structure, not a physical structure. Settlements will bind themselves together in many different ways. Sometimes they'll be in close physical proximity and sometimes they won't.
There will be a mechanism to assert control over a hex, and that mechanism will almost certainly involve structures, and defense of same. Exact mechanics are still being debated.
This does make one wonder.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bringslite, yeah, that's much newer, and probably more accurately reflects their current thinking.
@Jazzlvraz, I think the reason you're having trouble turning it up in a search is because it hasn't really been spelled out yet. I think a lot of us are expecting to be able to Banish/Exile individual characters, though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Nihimon,what I should have said was 'It is not as obvious a goal" since it is not in your thread title (ie the Kingdom of....), but I stand corrected.
The overall point I'm trying to make is that the only source of PVP is not going to be banditry and anti banditry, or I certainly hope not.
Yes, I'm aware that harvesting sites will spawn NPC mobs, and while your guards are occupied with those mobs, your rivals would be wise to strike then. Just before one side or the other has achieved victory, and spent much of their strength.
@ All...
Even though a "nation" or "kingdom" may not require a contiguous landmass, it would be preferred. Imagine the tolls you would have to pay,just to trade between your member settlements if your merchants have to pass through a political / economic rival's controlled hex(es).
@ Hobbs, you say don't lose sight of the RPG. I certainly haven't. My two characters could not be more radically different, near polar opposites really.
My Bandit = Small Gang PVP oriented, greedy, CN with evil leanings
My Monk = Solo, non materialistic, generous, LG. Would never loot a PC that he was forced to kill in self defense, but would rather take them down to low health and try to reason with them to stop attacking. If they agree, open trade window and give them a healing salve.
If he dies, he would never take out a bounty and under no circumstance would he levy a Death Curse. He would address his killer in via in game mail, leave a message of spiritual healing and give them a healing salve.
As I said, I can RP, even when I post they are from total different perspectives, not as characters, but in the way I look to play them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bludd,
I never said you don't RP, I just don't want the game to become a place where RP takes a very very far back seat to constant conquest and competition.
Bluddwolf RPs so much he even RPs during these game design discussions. As you can imagine (and I'm sure have witnessed), this creates a lot of difficulty when your discussion partner only views the game design from the point of view of a single perspective inside the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bludd,
I never said you don't RP, I just don't want the game to become a place where RP takes a very very far back seat to constant conquest and competition.
Well that is a very different discussion, and I hope that there could be a specific Role PLaying thread where we could discuss game mechanics that support RP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Back to the OP Topic...
Lifedragn, I think that in the short and long term, your idea will prove more beneficial to you and your settlement than opting to fight, fights you can't win and losing all.
If you do have the force capable of defending yourself, then by all means, fight to keep what you hold. But, under those circumstances you would present a greater risk than what we might be willing to take, and pass you up for a softer target.
Light risk, low reward = if we are bored, maybe
Light Risk, medium reward = sure
Light Risk , high reward = yes always, and probably no SAD either
Medium risk, light reward = no
Medium, medium = maybe, if we are bored
Medium, high = yes always, but probably SAD
High risk, low reward = not ever
High, Medium = not likely, need to be really bored
High, High = This could be the event that legends are made of, yes!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not sure yet. I would imagine there will be a skill for inventory peeking. How close you would have to be could be significant, but could also be offset by the stealth bonus of Outlaw flag.
I imagine that you will be able to see the reputation of your targets more readily, as part of how much rep you lose for non-consensual non-SAD rejection pvp depends on the amount of rep your target has.