Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Please, let's not be so overdramatic. You can bring up MLK when someone at the gaming table starts shooting water cannons, beating people with night sticks, and releasing attack dogs on fellow gamers. I don't really think we're talk about anything that harsh, unless your playing RPG's with a VERY rough bunch.I'm not sure how so many of the people posting enjoy any part of life. SO many seem to be offended by so much I dont know why they even bother to leave the house and interact with other people. If comments or language from other people effect you so much, then your self esteem needs some work.Really? I would have loved to see you tell someone like Martin Luther King his self-esteem needed work.
Enjoy your time on these pages, sir. I wish you well.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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(Do I really want to know about Miss Feathers?)
I will say it is not as if the Christians had a monopoly on crusades or on holy war in general. So the idea that a corrupt crusader is implicity a mockery of christian crusaders is a bit of a stretch. (Now if the crusader rides a white charger under a red banner with three gold lions, then you might have a case, but otherwise, for all you know, they could be based on Saladin.)
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Please, let's not be so overdramatic. You can bring up MLK when someone at the gaming table starts shooting water cannons, beating people with night sticks, and releasing attack dogs on fellow gamers. I don't really think we're talk about anything that harsh, unless your playing RPG's with a VERY rough bunch.I'm not sure how so many of the people posting enjoy any part of life. SO many seem to be offended by so much I dont know why they even bother to leave the house and interact with other people. If comments or language from other people effect you so much, then your self esteem needs some work.Really? I would have loved to see you tell someone like Martin Luther King his self-esteem needed work.
No one really gets to decide for other people what they do and don't have a right to be offended about, especially when they aren't a member of the group about which something was said. (Doing so has always struck me as the same as, say, someone without arthritis telling someone with it, "Oh, well, it doesn't hurt that bad!")
I've always wondered why for some people, when they find out that they said something that hurt, triggered bad memories, or felt insulting or derogatory to someone that they're supposed to be having a good time with, their first reaction is to defend their "right" to say that sort of thing rather than to want to make the person they hurt feel better.
If your having a good time is contingent on being able to say derogatory things about other individuals at the table, or other groups of people, well, you find fun whatever you find fun. But you're going to have to accept that A) it's going to make a lot of people opt not to play with you, and B) you don't have an absolute right to do those sort of things everywhere. What you do in your home game is ultimately your business (and that of your home game group), but if you're going to play in games run by others, or organized play programs run by companies with a broader player base than just you to think about, at the end of the day your options are to adhere to what they consider acceptable behavior from their guests, or risk getting expelled.
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Columbus
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It's not the crusade and fighting the demons.
It is the corruption into an inquisition and burning of witches etc.
sound like it is trying to copy something?
As Jessica just said---someone doesn't get to decide what offends others. And if they stick to the story of fighting demons all good and well.
But when the story devolves into the corruption of the church and inquisitions and burning innocent people accused of witchcraft?
how is that any less offensive than references to Miss Feathers or slavery?
as Jessica said--who gets to decide--the offender or the offended?
""Misogyny, homophobia, racism, etc. are things that people have to deal with every day, and may not want to have to deal with in their gaming""
and people giving me crap about the corruption of religion is something I have to deal with too often (pope news much). I don't want to deal with it in a game.
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It's not the crusade and fighting the demons.
It is the corruption into an inquisition and burning of witches etc.
sound like it is trying to copy something?
As Jessica just said---someone doesn't get to decide what offends others. And if they stick to the story of fighting demons all good and well.
But when the story devolves into the corruption of the church and inquisitions and burning innocent people accused of witchcraft?
how is that any less offensive than references to Miss Feathers or slavery?
as Jessica said--who gets to decide--the offender or the offended?
""Misogyny, homophobia, racism, etc. are things that people have to deal with every day, and may not want to have to deal with in their gaming""
and people giving me crap about the corruption of religion is something I have to deal with too often (pope news much). I don't want to deal with it in a game.
If people at your table, Hakken, are using anti-Catholic slurs toward you, you absolutely should tell them to stop, just as if they were using racist slurs.
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No one really gets to decide for other people what they do and don't have a right to be offended about, especially when they aren't a member of the group about which something was said. (Doing so has always struck me as the same as, say, someone without arthritis telling someone with it, "Oh, well, it doesn't hurt that bad!")
As the same time. Some people look for reasons to react to items. The inention and placement of the words or actions should determine the obscenity of the phrase. I have seen people get offended for the silliest of things.
I worked at a phone center doing phone surverys. We were doing a politcal poll in Utah. Reviewing it someone said "The area has a high percentage of mormons and statistically they have a higher voting percentage." The comment offended someone and they filed multiple complaints, and complaints about people who were not offended.
When I was Dming Quest for perfection I had one of the NPCs call a PC inentionally being rude a gaijin. A sleight insult for foreigner. After the game I explained what that was and one of the other players was offended once he learned that. I had him look it up on his phone and that clamed him down.
I honestly try to not offend the crowd I am in, but as I said earlier some people look fo reasons to be offended.
There is a point where it becomes obscene to take things like that too.
*shrug* If someone tells me something I said was offensive, I usually try to understand why before I form an opinion on it.
At the end of the day, I'd rather not use a particular word, at least around an individual or for the length of a gaming session, and risk their offense being trivial, than to risk continuing to cause someone genuine discomfort or emotional pain by continuing to use it. Not using a word around someone is a small thing.
Hurting them, to me at least, isn't.
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This is pinned at the top of our local group's FB page, and has been told to our regulars. Not because it has been an issue, but rather in the hopes of prevention. We'd rather people know what to do and never use it, than vice verse.
"Sexual harassment, physical or verbal abuse, and other untoward conduct between players or characters will not be tolerated in Pathfinder Society. If you feel that someone is acting inappropriately and you feel uncomfortable, ask your GM to step in. If s/he is unwilling to get involved, or does not help to resolve the situation, contact the Venture-Lieutenant [contact info]. Or, if you are more comfortable speaking to a woman, come to me [I'm married to the VL]. Character on character violence is strictly forbidden in Society play."
That being said, we tend to play in private homes (mostly for lack of access to public venues) where things can be a bit more lax. If there are minors around, even if they're 17, I am stricter about policing behaviours and language.
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I agree to most of the extent.
I played a scenario with a gay werewolf. When I figured this out. I asked the DM if what I heard was right. The whole table(everyone laughed) found the rarity of the situation in a PFS environment hilarious. Then the game continued with jokes related, like merisel trying to flirt with him to distract during a particular scene to buy time for her allies. Not a single joke was demeaning to the gay life style.
If one person was a west bapist church follower. This might have been horribly offensive for them. So one sensitive person would ruin the fun for the rest of the table to.
Edit. I am a huge fan of stephen fry.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Columbus
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If people at your table, Hakken, are using anti-Catholic slurs toward you, you absolutely should tell them to stop, just as if they were using racist slurs.It's not the crusade and fighting the demons.
It is the corruption into an inquisition and burning of witches etc.
sound like it is trying to copy something?
As Jessica just said---someone doesn't get to decide what offends others. And if they stick to the story of fighting demons all good and well.
But when the story devolves into the corruption of the church and inquisitions and burning innocent people accused of witchcraft?
how is that any less offensive than references to Miss Feathers or slavery?
as Jessica said--who gets to decide--the offender or the offended?
""Misogyny, homophobia, racism, etc. are things that people have to deal with every day, and may not want to have to deal with in their gaming""
and people giving me crap about the corruption of religion is something I have to deal with too often (pope news much). I don't want to deal with it in a game.
that is where it gets hard to be "subjective" The person was playing a character with the heresy trait--so got a +1 on bonuses against divine spells. When something happened the typical comments from them were "typical--just like all religions" or "why should I fight this mage religion--it seems if anything more honest than any cheating religion I have ever seen." Another one was "all worlds would be better off without any religion" or something to that extent.
Never specifically mentioned protestant, catholic, jewish, muslim etc religions. But his comments to some of us at the table seemed to go way beyond the "game" religions. He matter of factly in character intro told us he saw his character as him.
So when I am sitting at a gaming table--corrupt crusaders need to be stopped---and one of the players says something like "death to all religions--put them all to the torch or something--what do I do? Is that roleplay? or slur? Do they specifically have to say death to Iomedae or Seranrae followers? What if they have given off a vibe the entire game that they do not like religion in general-such as the above player? Do I take his words to mean one thing but when someone else says them another?
that is why I said I 95% agree. Where does roleplay stop---and insults begin?
We need to be careful in HOW we apply political correctness--some things about fantasy games in general are brutal and have things we would reject in our society.
We know that we kill people in this game right? (yes, I know, they're all bad ;) Then we loot their bodies and homes. Then we find their friends and family and do the same (yes they're all bad, I know). I'm fascinated by the focus on language. Maybe the "bad" guy didn't come from a loving home.
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Where does roleplay stop---and insults begin?
The moment someone tells you that you've crossed a line for them and they do not feel safe/comfortable/like they are able to enjoy themselves if this particular line of role-play continues.
EDIT: I realize this is awfully reductionist and misses the idea that you may not know you've offended someone; I would hope someone would speak up when role-play began to cross lines. But I find that this is an issue where, if you split hairs and try to define exactly what the "line" is you risk telling someone somewhere that they fall on the side of the line where they have no right to ask someone to stop.
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The intention of the words is what makes them offensive.
If you intend the words to insult or to put down a group of people then it becomes obscene. Using your character to do it is no better(you can sensor your self. My gnome gnome says "ricka racka fricka fricka" for f-bombs). Although Role playing is a mock of life. With real life situations. Removing potentially offensive material leaves the world too bland. If someone can not tolerate adult themes of racism or hate then this is not the game for them.
On the same extent if you can not contain offensive things, then this is not the game for you either.
If someone wants to get offeneded I use another word to swear, they need to grow up. If I do swear and it bothers you or say/do something that honestly offends you please please please let me know. I will adjust myself.
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I think we might be missing an opportunity to help people understand a very important thing about roleplaying -- the separation of out of character and in character behavior. My Taldan cavalier is VERY racist, elitist, and a general ass. To him, most others are uncouth, unbearded louts who are worth less than the saddle on his beloved warhorse, Bucephalus. I, on the other hand, am nothing like him. I make strong efforts to make sure the other players at the tables I'm at while playing Sir Garadoch know that I am playing a ROLE. And to help 'soften the blow' of having to deal with a rude, over-bred professional soldier, i have him provide all the out of combat healing for any Pathfinder group he is part of (He fancies himself 'the commander of any military part of any mission' and it is 'his responsibility that his soldiers are taken care of and have the best chance for success').
That said, the situation the original poster mentioned sounded like it was at best, out of character insensitivity and at worst, out of character homophobia. I'm not OK with either.
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The intention of the words is what makes them offensive.
I agree that intent is a big factor; the overwhelming majority people do not intend to offend. But that does not remove culpability for making derogatory comments; if you say something that may not be OK in a public space or that could be offensive, chances are it is/was to someone present. Worse, if someone tells you what you said was not OK and ask you to stop, you need to honor that.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Columbus
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one of the pathfinder intro scenarios specifically tells you how the racist NPC will react to each race. It is fun seeing the players react to how she treats them all differently--so if the scenario writer put it in--was it intended to show racism in the game?
The game designers themselves built racism into their scenarios.
bdk86 probably has the best answer---once someone says 'STOP' you stop.
Until you speak up, the other person may not know.
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The intention of the words is what makes them offensive.I agree that intent is a big factor; the overwhelming majority people do not intend to offend. But that does not remove culpability for making derogatory comments; if you say something that may not be OK in a public space or that could be offensive, chances are it is/was to someone present. Worse, if someone tells you what you said was not OK and ask you to stop, you need to honor that.
A subconsious attempt to insult is still intent.
They may not realize it. For example looking at older media describe other races as inferior. The people creating this did not intend to be offensive.
They may claim ignorance, but the intent of the content was offensive.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Columbus
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An F-bomb or other expletive is not the same as a derogatory, dehumanizing term used to describe an ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation. Excusing away that behavior as part of a machismo culture, military or otherwise, does ZERO service to the inacceptability of those terms. I know plenty of people with racist, misogynist and homophobic tendencies; just because they have other wonderful aspects of their character (like every single human on this planet) doesn't mean they don't deserve to have society collectively come down like a ton of bricks when their flaws cross the lines of propriety.
There is absolutely nothing acceptable in the term, "homo." If I were at a table where this term was used (whether I was GM or player), it would be made clear this was not acceptable. If there was even so much as a question or argument about that unacceptability, I'd be heading for whichever VC or VL was closest and raising hell about it.
add religion to the above derogatory terms. Insulting someone's religion is just as bad.
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Venture-Agent, West Virginia—Martinsburg
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I think the short of it is;
Use common sense. You are in public. If you think the word might offend even one person at the table, you DONT USE IT.
If you do get offended by something someone said, either tell them to stop directly, or ask to speak to the GM privately and let them know. If nothing comes of it, move up the chain.
While understood that this is a fantasy world, we are players in that world, not folks who actually live there. While our characters may say these things on a normal basis, we as players do not need to say them.
If the language is considered to be on the FCC's naughty list for regular TV (not cable), you dont bring it to the table. Its that simple.
Yes, I understand it slips out once in a while. Accidents happen. But make it a continuous stream of verbiage and you will be asked to leave my table.
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People already said so much in this thread, so I don't have anything to add besides saying that modern people can be offended in a blink of an eye. If we apologize for everything, soon enough, those apologizes will become empty words.
Imagine, I had another player insulted, after I specifically told him that I like my characters to be slightly mysterious. This insulted him, because he believed I didn't want to share my character knowledge with him.
