It seems to me that people here tend to want to have Paladins of alignments other than Lawful Good. Personally, I think this really defeats the point of the class, but in gaming all is fair as long as fun is had, right?
So my idea was to create the Templar class. Basically it'd use the Cavalier but give them divine magic powers (I'd be using the Magus spells-per-day table to basically make them the divine equivalent of a Magus).
Here's a quick and dirty on how I see the Templar working mechanically:
BAB: Cavalier's
Saves: Cavalier's
Spells per Day: Use Magus table chart (0-6 level)
Spell types: They will choose from a modified version of the Paladin's spell list. Obviously, a Templar should choose those spells that best represent the chosen Cause.
Can use: Cavalier's
Special abilities: Not sure yet. Obviously a mount will be involved. Most likely I'll either use the Cavalier's wholesale or adjust them slightly.
Falling: Like Paladins, Templars can Fall if they betray or loose faith in their Cause. This mostly has to do with the fact that the spell-like abilities they have are fueled by the faith in their Cause. If they cease to believe in it or actively go against it, they loose the ability to cast divine spells until they either atone or find a new Cause.
Unlike Paladins, Templars would not loose powers that are not based on their Cause. For instance, their mounts would remain faithful to them. They might also be able to do some other tricks, but it really would probably depend on the circumstances of the Fall:
If a Templar is in despair, then all power would desert that Templar due to completely shattered faith. If the Templar finds their current Cause no longer palatable(but still wants to fight) then the powers would remain, fueled by the Templar's desire to press on.
Once the Templar either atones or finds a new Cause, the spell-like abilities return - though in the case of a new Cause the spells available would likely be different. Probably I'd follow the guidelines for choosing a new Cavalier order here.
Thoughts on this?
I fully agree, and have been proposing this in threads about paladins of other alignments before. Making holy warriors with faith-given powers that are not LG but are not called paladins would solve the dispute between "we want CG paladins" and "paladins are LG - that's part of the paladinship!".
I made a chaotic good archetype for cavalier for this very purpose. It has not been playtested yet, but feel free to use and abuse it, or tell me if you think it's over/underpowered.
Link to google documents version
Herald of Freedom (cavalier archetype)
Alignment - A herald of freedom must be chaotic good. This is part of her edicts.
Order - A herald of freedom can only be part of the order of the blue rose, order of the land, order of the penitent or order of the shield. It can also be part of order of the star, but only if the faith is one generally oppressed in most parts of the world.
Idealistic Drive: In addition to the normal edict granted by her order, a herald of freedom won’t accept or defend slavery or servitude, even that which is guised in so-called free will; according to her, someone forced into servitude by lack of bread is no more free than someone forced by lack of arms. While she realizes large parts of the world are ordered in such a fashion, her motto is similar to “be realistic, demand the impossible”. She will oppose oppressors whenever she can, but will do so in a pragmatic rather than idealistic manner. This is treated as part of her edict, and failing to uphold it is treated as failing to uphold her order’s edicts.
All abilities granted by this archetype are lost if she fails to uphold her edicts or if her alignment shifts from chaotic good. They can only be regained by atoning (see the atonement spell).
Divine Gift - Some heralds of freedom are divinely powered by their ideals. A herald of freedom may gain access to the Liberation domain, or any of it’s subdomains (Freedom or Revolution), as a cleric of her level. Since she has no spell slots, she instead gains the domain spells as spell-like abilities that can be used once per day each. If she chooses to gain this ability, it replaces the Mount ability.
Unrelenting Mind (Su) - A herald of freedom is protected against intrusions of her free will. At 3rd level, she gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting spells and effects. This replaces the Cavalier’s Charge ability.
Language of the Land (Su) - Oppression takes many forms and targets many people, and uniting these require good communication. From 4th level onwards, the herald is under the effect of a constant comprehend languages. This replaces Expert Trainer.
Empyreal Allies (Sp) - At 11th level, the celestial forces of freedom has taken notice of the herald and agreed to aid her. Once per day she may use one of the following as spell-like abilities: Commune (chaotic good deity only) or extended Summon Monster V (Bralani only). Note that the summoned bralani will aid the herald in the way it thinks is best - it will not take orders of any kind, though it’s not opposed to suggestions or asks for help. The caster level of these abilities are equal to the heralds level. This replaces the Mighty Charge ability.
Heaven on Earth (Su) - At 20th level, her strive for freedom has turned her into a living celestial. Her type changes to outsider with the native, good and chaotic subtypes. She becomes an Azata, gaining the following traits: Darkvision 60 ft and low-light vision; immunity to electricity and petrification; resistance to cold 10 and fire 10, and the Truespeech ability (the ability to speak with any creature that has a language). If she wishes, she also grow wings that allow her to fly at double her base speed (average maneuverability). Once made, this choice can not be changed. This replaces the Supreme Charge ability.
I fully agree, and have been proposing this in threads about paladins of other alignments before. Making holy warriors with faith-given powers that are not LG but are not called paladins would solve the dispute between "we want CG paladins" and "paladins are LG - that's part of the paladinship!".
I made a chaotic good archetype for cavalier for this very purpose. It has not been playtested yet, but feel free to use and abuse it, or tell me if you think it's over/underpowered.
The Herald of Freedom looks pretty much like what I had in mind for what the class would be. I'm not sure the Summoned Monster quite works with the tenants of non-oppression, though.
I'm also not sure about becoming an Azata, but I think the rest of it looks pretty okay. I like how you included the Cavalier orders with the tenants.
My main issue with the Templar right now is that I really like the Cavaliers. I think it's very important to have the equivalent of a knight class (which is easily translatable into a samurai class). Even the knight-errant and more modern interpretations of the rōnin are roughly equivalent.
The problem with something like a Templar is that it's basically a knight plus. Whether divine or arcane, the basic concept of the knight doesn't change. What does change is the reasoning behind becoming a regular knight as opposed to an arcane or divine knight.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
Another option would be the alignment-based abilities a feat chain that anyone can take but that generally makes most sense for cavaliers and other classes which you deem fitting.
Just substitute the cavalier mount and mount related abilities for paladin spells and spell progression. Make it an archetype.
Otherwise, just sprinkle some flavor onto the inquisitor and serve it tartar...
Just substitute the cavalier mount and mount related abilities for paladin spells and spell progression. Make it an archetype.
Otherwise, just sprinkle some flavor onto the inquisitor and serve it tartar...
Since paladins also have mounts, I'm not sure how well that would work. Honestly, I don't see the inquisitor and templar serving the same purpose at all. Inquisitors seem to be more like internal safeguards of a religion - the ones that keep an eye out for corruption. Templars are the knights that go forth and fight for the religion.
Like I said, the main problem I see is having the regular cavaliers (who basically function as knights) and things like the paladins/templars (who are divinely empowered knights) or a magus (who could be recast as an arcane knight).
Ride is still a class skill. If you want a mount, then buy one... It's just the easiest solution that leaves the most player options. Mounts are situational at best anyway. Get some spells to boost your mounts prowess. Just an idea.
The mechanics of a class are just that, mechanics. RP and flavor are what make characters into what they truly are.
I agree that if you want a paladiny feeling being good with a mount is important (the reason the mount-replacing ability on the herald is not required to take).
However, all the other mount-related abilities like expert trainer and mighty charge etc feel much less needed.
But if you want to make it feel like a "knight with extra", consider how you build regular knights - are they as high level etc?
Also, that's the reason why a feat method might be good.
Some (very) limited power could be given in exchange for harsher codes of conduct/edicts. Those should mostly just be flavor powers though, rather than game changers.