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I'm researching for my new axe beak riding cavalier, and I've come across some questions that I cannot find the answers to:
1) Can I put an exotic or military saddle on my axe beak?
For available slots, the Animal Archive lists:
Armor, belt, chest, eyes, headband, neck, ring, wrist
It does not list chest(saddle) or belt(saddle); does that infer any chest item including saddles? The Bestiary entry specifies that I must use an exotic saddle to ride the thing. Additionally, the Additional Resources page states
The Animal Magic Item Slots table found on the inside front cover of the book is not legal except under the following conditions. First, an animal companion, familiar, or bonded mount, may choose one slot listed under its body type when taking the Extra Item Slot feat (this feat may be taken multiple times, each time selecting a different available magic item slot based on the creature’s anatomy).
I cannot find where it is listed what slots a mount or animal companion can use without taking a feat. Surely I don't have to make a heavy horse mount take a feat to gain access to feet(horseshoes) before I can equip some Horseshoes of the Zephyr on them.
2) If I can equip some sort of saddle, can I use magical saddles? If so, under what conditions?
3) If I cannot equip any sort of saddle without a feat, then I presume I must take the -5 penalty to Ride checks for riding the axe beak bareback. Correct?
I appreciate any and all feedback.
...except from trolls, they can drink acid...
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Ok, so you're saying he can wear non-magical saddles and armor without a feat, but if I wanted to enchant the armor he'd have to take the Extra Item Slot (Armor) feat for the mount?
PFS critters come with the more restrictive of either magical armor and neckslot magical items OR the animal archive chart. Since both PFS and the chart allow the Bird to wear armor and neckslot, you're good to wear magic armor and use a magic amulet.
Armor, belt, chest, eyes, headband, neck, ring, wrist
So if your critter is an animal companion they can spend a feat to wear a Belt of strength +2, but there's no mechanism to get them the cloak of resistance (because they lack the shoulder slot)
It is intended that animal companions or familiars can not activate magic items. An animal companion could benefit from an item with a continuous magical effect like an amulet of natural armor if its master equipped the item for the animal companion. Animal companions of any type may not use manufactured weapons.
Animal companions are also limited by their individual anatomies. In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, animal companions always have access to barding and neck-slot items so long as they have the anatomy. For example, a horse and pig can always have access to barding and neck-slot items. A snake does not have access to either.
Additionally, animal companions have access to magical item slots, in addition to barding and neck, as listed on the inside front cover of the Animal Archive so long as they select the Extra Item Slot feat. The Animal Magic Item Slots table found in Animal Archive is not a legal except under the following conditions. First, an animal companion, familiar, or bonded mount, may choose one slot listed under its body type when taking the Extra Item Slot feat (this feat may be taken multiple times, each time selecting a different available magic item slot based on the creature’s anatomy). Second, access to specific magic item slots may be granted at a later date by another legal source. If you do not own a copy of the Animal Archive, your animal companion may only use barding and neck-slot items.
An animal or familiar has to have an intelligence of 3+ to activate an ioun stone. If the animal or familiar has less than a 3 intelligence, they may not activate an ioun stone.
The brownie, faerie dragon, imp, lyrakien azata, mephit, quasit, sprite familiars, granted by the Improved Familiar feat, use the Biped (hands) section of the chart. The carbuncle and voidworm protean, familiars granted by the Improved Familiar feat, uses the Serpentine section of the chart. If you do not own a copy of the Animal Archive, your animal companion may only use barding and neck-slot items.
You can also use items specifically designed for animals. Horses can wear horse shoes, any animal companion can swallow the stone of alliance etc.
2) If I can equip some sort of saddle, can I use magical saddles? If so, under what conditions?
I think no, you can't wear a magic saddle but i'm not 100% sure
Argument no (95% sure): Your axebeak has the slot belt, not belt (saddle)slot.
Argument yes : magical saddles are specifically designed for animals so they're ok.
3) If I cannot equip any sort of saddle without a feat, then I presume I must take the -5 penalty to Ride checks for riding the axe beak bareback. Correct?
Yes. I think you can have it wear a non magical saddle though.
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Thank you so much for your assistance; I didn't realize it was buried in the FAQ. I was searching the boards and the Guide to PFS Organized Play for an answer.
I'm glad that I can wear a saddle, but probably won't waste a feat for chest(saddle) magic item slot. Some of them are very nice, but I think I'd rather have my mount take Combat Reflexes. ;-)
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Thank you so much for your assistance; I didn't realize it was buried in the FAQ. I was searching the boards and the Guide to PFS Organized Play for an answer.
I'm glad that I can wear a saddle, but probably won't waste a feat for chest(saddle) magic item slot. Some of them are very nice, but I think I'd rather have my mount take Combat Reflexes. ;-)
If you want the poor thing to live, Invest in masterwork studded leather barding (cheap but works) , mithral chain shirt (good value), or mitrhal kiko barding (expensive as hell but there's a limited number of ways to up their ac). No armor check penalty= they're light enough to wear without proficiency.
Oooo new trick i thought of. Agile mithral breastplate with +1 and the Comfort special ability ... (at that point you may as well flip for spinners on your critter)
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Actually, a mithral breastplate should have a 0 ACP on its own.
Breastplate has a -4 ACP and mithral reduces the penalty by 3 (totaling in -1). However, since mithral is always considered masterwork it should reduce the penalty by 1 again (for a total of 0 ACP). After all, wouldn't adamantine breastplate have a -3 ACP? It is also always considered masterwork.
The masterwork is already calculated into the mithral. You reduce the armor check penalty by 3, no more than that unless you have a trait that reduces it again(armor expect for instance) or the comfort enchant. An example of a magical item that is already mithral and has this calculated would be the mithral full plate here.
MrSin, are you saying that adamantine breastplate would have a -4 ACP, even though it is masterwork?
No, it will be -3. Its already masterwork, and for 10,000 gp it better be masterwork!
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Ok, I agree with you that adamantine breastplate would have an ACP of -3 because of the masterwork quality that you get with it (even though you don't have to pay for it separately).
By the same logic, you'd get the masterwork benefits from mithral armor. Mithral breastplate would have an ACP of 0 and mithral full plate would have an ACP of -2.
I realize that Mithral Full Plate of Speed has an ACP of -3, but that proves nothing. Elven Chain looks in all ways like mithral added to chain mail, but it says it's light even in terms of proficiency, which does not follow the Special Materials section for mithral. Mithral Shirt follows the rules for a mithral chain shirt, except that it's 10 lbs instead of 12.5 lbs.
I guess what I'm trying to point at is that the Specific Armors are not consistent with the Special Materials rules in any of the cases. I will admit that the three Specific Armors in question all point to your way of calculating ACP for mithral armors, but I think they're forgetting the masterwork quality adjustment. If not, Paizo should release an errata or FAQ stating that they don't stack.
At the end of the day, I would like to get Mithral Agile Breastplate for my axe beak... but then there's the question of how much does it cost. I've seen 5 different numbers...
I may just stick with MW Parade Armor for barding. It's simple and still looks nice.
I guess what I'm trying to point at is that the Specific Armors are not consistent with the Special Materials rules in any of the cases. I will admit that the three Specific Armors in question all point to your way of calculating ACP for mithral armors, but I think they're forgetting the masterwork quality adjustment. If not, Paizo should release an errata or FAQ stating that they don't stack.
Its not that your wrong, its that the books have been wrong all along, since 3.5?
The best armor for 0 ACP depends on your budget and whether you progress your mount to large or keep it medium. Chances are Mithral chain shirt(+4 AC, +6 max dex, 0 ACP, for 1200 medium, 1400 large) is the cheapest for the most. I think anyway, I don't know how much you want to invest in its armor.
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I guess what I'm trying to point at is that the Specific Armors are not consistent with the Special Materials rules in any of the cases. I will admit that the three Specific Armors in question all point to your way of calculating ACP for mithral armors, but I think they're forgetting the masterwork quality adjustment. If not, Paizo should release an errata or FAQ stating that they don't stack.Its not that your wrong, its that the books have been wrong all along, since 3.5?
The best armor for 0 ACP depends on your budget and whether you progress your mount to large or keep it medium. Chances are Mithral chain shirt(+4 AC, +6 max dex, 0 ACP, for 1200 medium, 1400 large) is the cheapest for the most. I think anyway, I don't know how much you want to invest in its armor.
You're right, I was being kind of an ass. I suppose I'm frustrated that I've kept the mithral and masterwork bonuses separate in my mind for so long, it's hard to see it the other way. Now I wish that they were just clearer in the special materials description.
I'll probably go for studded leather or parade armor because it's the most reasonably priced.
If the axebeak was large it would cost x4 as much. So your kikko armor would be like 16,000+ for a +5 vs the 4400 for the +4 chain shirt.
Alternatively, read it as x4 to the armor price and don't multiply the cost of the materials. I've always read it as multiplying the armor but treating the materials as an addition to the cost after the armor.
You happen to have a quote? If that's true then the price of gear for anything that isn't a medium sized humanoid is through the roof.
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No, materials are also multiplied by 4. The enhancements are not multiplied.
This is entirely arbitrary, and doesn't make any practical sense.
Sure, you get charged double for the size because you need more mithral. But why would they charge you extra for the mitrhal because its being shaped as barding instead of armor?
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Don't need a quote. That's how it works. For precedence look at the difference in cost between medium and heavy mithril armor. The reason is because of more metal.
The reason barding for large creatures is 4x cost is because of more material.
So why wouldn't the mithril cost be 4x?
And yes, special material barding is really really expensive.
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No, materials are also multiplied by 4. The enhancements are not multiplied.This is entirely arbitrary, and doesn't make any practical sense.
Sure, you get charged double for the size because you need more mithral. But why would they charge you extra for the mitrhal because its being shaped as barding instead of armor?
The rules don't stipulate otherwise.
Don't need a quote. That's how it works.
The rules don't say your right either though do they? That's why I asked for a quote. You can't just say a rule is something and then tell me you can't prove it. I honestly want to know if I've been wrong.
I don't see how you could interpret the rule any other way.
I do. You either add the price of the material to the armor and then multiply it or you add the price of the material after the cost of the armor. It doesn't take twice as much of the material to make it for 2 creatures of the same size I wouldn't think. Besides, its already expensive enough as is. If you think of it more like an enhancement it doesn't really need to have the price multiplied. Its no more useful for a gargantuan creature to wear adamantine than it is for a medium.
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there is a difference on how you do the math
material+(4* armor cost)
or (material+armor cost)*4
Now the question I have and many people would argue this does not make sence since one is wieght and the other cost, but they are from the same chart
the weight is
(material * armor)*2
not
material+(2*armor)
Using the same logic from the chart thats why I believe it is more expensive.
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Don't need a quote. That's how it works.
Thats circular. You're taking something with two equally valid raw interpretations and ignoring one that makes more practical sense.
Its a matter of
(Armor+materials)X2 size X 2 barding
vs
(Base armor X2 barding)+ (x2 materials)
For precedence look at the difference in cost between medium and heavy mithril armor. The reason is because of more metal.
That explains medium vs large but not barding vs armor.
For a better precedent you can look at masterwork and enchantments, which are not doubled for being part of an unusual creature
The cost of armor for non-humanoid creatures, as well as for creatures who are neither Small nor Medium, varies (see Equipment). The cost of the masterwork quality and any magical enhancement remains the same.
Actually, this makes the second interpretation stronger, because the masterworking cost is included in the materials cost, and your method winds up including that 4 times instead of once.
The reason barding for large creatures is 4x cost is because of more material.
So why wouldn't the mithril cost be 4x?
You answered your own question. Its 2X for barding and 2X for large but there isn't more material being used in equally sized barding vs armor. You use twice the mithral you should only pay twice the mithral cost.
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I don't see how you could interpret the rule any other way.
I've seen three threads on this in the last few days, and can find no official ruling. Both sides present good arguments, and I've seen 5 different interpretations on how to price special material armor for large animals.
I am of the opinion that you don't multiply the special material cost. Partially because it makes special material go from hugely expensive to stupidly expensive. The other reason is because many special materials don't scale based on how much of it you need. An adamantine dagger costs +3000gp and an adamantine greataxe also costs +3000gp.
Because of this it stands to reason that the special material pricing is for game balance purposes. The point of making barding 4x the cost is to prevent 1st or 2nd level characters from breaking the game or getting it too early. If you could buy a heavy horse at 1st level, then you could just have the horse attack that goblin raiding party (come to think of it, maybe this is why they hate and fear horses).
For this reason, in my home games I treat it as an enhancement that isn't multiplied. Because there is no official ruling for PFS, or Pathfinder in general, I'm inclined to avoid buying it to avoid a "your mileage may vary" situation.
So you don't think the cost of mithril for medium vs heavy armor is about more mithril being needed? And that a gargantuan creature is going to need more mithril to provide the same protection than for a small creature?
I think its more about balance and value than anything. Adamantite light armor gives Dr 1/ and making a light armor mithral doesn't change what type of armor it is. Adamantine full plate gives Dr/3 and Mithral full plate becomes viable for a character with up to 16 dex(I prefer mithral breastplate myself, bards/magus can cast in it and you can reduce it to 0 ACP easily.) No matter what size you are, the ACP and DR values don't change. So yes, the adamantine full plate for a gargantuan creature is just as valuable.
If your going off weight, don't forget the price doesn't change between items of the same type. It cost just as much to make a banded mail adamantine as it does a full plate. Same with chain mail and an armored coat(supposing you can make an armored coat mithral).
I am of the opinion that you don't multiply the special material cost. Partially because it makes special material go from hugely expensive to stupidly expensive.
I'm mostly here to be honest. Could you imagine a group of adventurers finding a huge sized creature with armor. Their faces.
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Also, from a game balance perspective, mithral is more useful on heavy armor, which is also why you would want to charge more for it.
Bringing Masterwork Full-Plate from -5 ACP to -3 ACP and a +1 Max Dex to a +3 Max Dex is far more useful than a Mithral Chain Shirt bringing -1 ACP down to 0 ACP and +4 Max Dex up to +6 Max Dex.
On the other hand, if an adamantine dagger cost far less than an adamantine greataxe, then I could see melee characters stocking one of these for breaking objects and getting past damage reduction. Because you get the same relative benefit from an adamantine weapon, the cost is the same. Yet another example of game balance being preferred over realism.
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Could you imagine a group of adventurers finding a huge sized creature with armor. Their faces.
There was actually a thread about buying mithral armor, then melting it down to sell it for the price per pound. Instead of a dragon's horde, I'll just give the dragon mithral breastplate to fly around in.
Btw, by weight, a mithral chain shirt is worth 12500 gp in mithral bars, but only 1100 after a blacksmith is finished with it.