Venture-Captain, Oregon—Portland
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Just curious how we are supposed to rule/work with the Mysterious Cultist PrC in PFS, as well as the new Obediences, all from the new Chronicle of the Righteous. Specifically the Fervor ability that the Mystery Cultist receives, as RAW the terrible aura affects ALL creatures, which means that you are potentially frightening allies. Isn't this PvP, or do we just hand wave this in PFS to only affect enemy creatures? Hand waving this ability seems contrary to the nature of the ability though. May not be that big a deal, but I was just curious about this one, as for a Negative energy channeler/Oracle this is a VERY good ability. +4 sacred bonus to Charisma for higher spell DC's and more uses of channel is pretty nice.
Also, as far as the Obediences, how do they work? As written, many of them seem to require a lot of GM oversight. Do GMs need to keep track on chronicle sheets to make sure people are spending/buying some gp amount to satisfy many of the Obediences, or is on player's? I noticed one in particular, the Obediance for Irez, that requires a "memory"-like game to be played with cards or harrow deck. For that one, do we just roll 2d6's and see if they come up a match, or do players need to bring 12 cards to games with them? The 2d6 rolls will be weighted heavily in favor of a mismatch, not sure how that would compare to the deck of cards without doing the math though.
Don't know how often I will see these as a GM, but I would like to be prepared, just in case.
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Just curious how we are supposed to rule/work with the Mysterious Cultist PrC in PFS, as well as the new Obediences, all from the new Chronicle of the Righteous. Specifically the Fervor ability that the Mystery Cultist receives, as RAW the terrible aura affects ALL creatures, which means that you are potentially frightening allies. Isn't this PvP, or do we just hand wave this in PFS to only affect enemy creatures? Hand waving this ability seems contrary to the nature of the ability though. May not be that big a deal, but I was just curious about this one, as for a Negative energy channeler/Oracle this is a VERY good ability. +4 sacred bonus to Charisma for higher spell DC's and more uses of channel is pretty nice.
For the Glorious Aura, that would be run just as described, which means anyone within the aura would be affected. It can be turn on/off so the PC would just need to be careful when they turn it on. This is no different than a wizard casting a fireball.
Also, as far as the Obediences, how do they work? As written, many of them seem to require a lot of GM oversight. Do GMs need to keep track on chronicle sheets to make sure people are spending/buying some gp amount to satisfy many of the Obediences, or is on player's? I noticed one in particular, the Obediance for Irez, that requires a "memory"-like game to be played with cards or harrow deck. For that one, do we just roll 2d6's and see if they come up a match, or do players need to bring 12 cards to games with them? The 2d6 rolls will be weighted heavily in favor of a mismatch, not sure how that would compare to the deck of cards without doing the math though.
Don't know how often I will see these as a GM, but I would like to be prepared, just in case.
These are great opportunities of roleplaying, and I very much look forward to seeing on in my game. They player will have to perform them. I would recommend allowing the PC to decide how they perform them and the GM just adjudicate as needed.
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I noticed one in particular, the Obediance for Irez, that requires a "memory"-like game to be played with cards or harrow deck. For that one, do we just roll 2d6's and see if they come up a match, or do players need to bring 12 cards to games with them? The 2d6 rolls will be weighted heavily in favor of a mismatch, not sure how that would compare to the deck of cards without doing the math though.
When matching twelve cards, for the first draw you have a 1 in 11 chance of making a match. You turn one card over, leaving 11 possible and only one that is correct. So 2d6 isn't the most accurate representation at all.
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Bumping this since the feat and PrC are now legal.
Several of the Obediences make me wonder if these things need to be accomplished in the scenario or can they be assumed to be done outside the scenario, as some of the Obediences may make other members of the party OOC very uncomfortable.
Additionally I wanted to state this:
LEADERSHIP IS LEGAL IN PFS...But it requires you to worship a specific deity, and take the Obedience feat and either wait until 20th level or take the PrC and wait until 16th level.
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Additionally I wanted to state this:LEADERSHIP IS LEGAL IN PFS...But it requires you to worship a specific deity, and take the Obedience feat and either wait until 20th level or take the PrC and wait until 16th level.
From the Guide Page 8:
Characters select feats according to the guidelines inthe Core Rulebook. Certain Core Rulebook feats are not
available to Pathfinder Society characters. These include
Brew Potion, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod,
Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge
Ring, Leadership, and Scribe Scroll.
Expect it was overlooked due to Leadership not being available to PFS characters. Good catch, will be forwarding to Campaign Leadership.
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I think the Leadership is covered by the statement "Certain Core Rulebook Feats are not available to Pathfinder Society characters. These include... Leadership ..."
Just because a class ability grants something, that doesn't necessarily mean it is legal. Most of the class features that occur in levels 1-11 have something to replace them (Spell Focus for a Wizard's Scribe Scroll, hold monster for a Time Oracle's permanency, etc.) but not all. And at the high levels there's plenty of classes that don't get a replacement spell/ability, it's just not a big deal in PFS. Oracles with the Heavens mystery of the Enlightened Philosopher archetype get reincarnate at level 20 and there's no listed replacement for those.
As for the obediences, most of them can be done as easily as normal spell preparation. Some of them are going to be more difficult to judge and a considerate player will probably stay away from them just because they wouldn't fit well into organized play. I'm thinking particularly of Valani (sacrificing 50 gp of items every day is difficult to track in the "indeterminate" time between scenarios) and Ragathiel (slay a proven wrongdoer in Ragathiel's name, hope you don't have an all-day diplomatic meeting or spend a week traveling on the river).
I see a few players trying to exploit this ("I killed a wrongdoer today, I get my boons.") and then GMs - especially those of a more role-playing bend - taking issue with that. ("Yes, but you didn't kill any for the last week. So you're only obedient when it's convenient? No boon until you perform the obedience every day for a week.") I can't say I disagree with that GM interpretation either.
Some of the others (Arshea? Lymnieris?) may make people uncomfortable if the player insists on describing what they do in graphic detail. I would just say "I do my obedience" and if the GM wants more, kinda gloss over it. If the whole table enjoys the idea, then you can go full-force.
Morals: As in all things PFS, be considerate AND don't try to exploit something just because it's there.
edit: As for the Glorious Aura, a creature can only be affected once per 24 hours. So when Drandle Dreng summons you all together at 4 AM, your teammates may be frightened for 6-24 seconds, then get over it for the rest of the day.
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As for the obediences, most of them can be done as easily as normal spell preparation. Some of them are going to be more difficult to judge and a considerate player will probably stay away from them just because they wouldn't fit well into organized play. I'm thinking particularly of Valani (sacrificing 50 gp of items every day is difficult to track in the "indeterminate" time between scenarios) and Ragathiel (slay a proven wrongdoer in Ragathiel's name, hope you don't have an all-day diplomatic meeting or spend a week traveling on the river).
I see a few players trying to exploit this ("I killed a wrongdoer today, I get my boons.") and then GMs - especially those of a more role-playing bend - taking issue with that. ("Yes, but you didn't kill any for the last week. So you're only obedient when it's convenient? No boon until you perform the obedience every day for a week.") I can't say I disagree with that GM interpretation either.
Some of the others (Arshea? Lymnieris?) may make people uncomfortable if the player insists on describing what they do in graphic detail. I would just say "I do my obedience" and if the GM wants more, kinda gloss over it. If the whole table enjoys the idea, then you can go full-force.
So you feel that a GM would be justified for not allowing a player in PFS to keep their obedience for Ragthiel just because of downtime (and thus completely neutering a character with the PrC in this book) but believe that those that might make people uncomfortable should be able to be simply glossed over?
This kind of double standard is exactly why there needs to be an official ruling, YMMV is not acceptable when the consequences are as follows:
Obedience (Ex): In order to maintain the abilities granted by this prestige class (including all spellcasting abilities that have been augmented by this prestige class), a mystery cultist must indulge in a daily obedience to her chosen empyreal lord (see page 5).
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Guys, it is GenCon prep season. I imagine Paizo employees have a bunch of things on their plates. Please don't freak when something slips through the cracks (as the leadership feat issue obviously did).
Obediences are not really designed with PFS in mind, so they may have also been an oversight, or may require further clarification. Until that happens, GMs make the call. If you are concerned about this in the next few weeks, just delay using the option until it has been clarified to your comfort level.
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Reading this thread makes me realize that I probably should have taken a closer look at Obediences before allowing them into organized play. When I first read through them, I thought it was something most GMs could handle effectively and work with the players to make them work. Apparently that is not the case with the few arguments I'm already reading here.
I will take a closer look at them this week and make sure that any that don't fit well into OP are removed in the Additional Resources update on Aug. 14.
On a side note, even if a class or archetype or whatever grants Leadership, it isn't legal in PFS.
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So you feel that a GM would be justified for not allowing a player in PFS to keep their obedience for Ragthiel just because of downtime (and thus completely neutering a character with the PrC in this book) but believe that those that might make people uncomfortable should be able to be simply glossed over?
No, I said there were some - like Valani - that would be impossible to track since the time between scenarios is undefined. I also said that others - like Ragathiel - would be problematic for other players and GMs in certain scenarios. If the scenario calls for a one week river voyage, the Ragathiel worshipper who is truly being obedient is going to have to demand that the boat stop every day so he can go hunt down and slay a wrongdoer. If he doesn't he's making a choice to ignore that obedience, so he shouldn't get his powers back the instant he kills a wrongdoer.
So Ragathiel might be possible but might require the GM to add encounters (a big no-no) or drastically lengthen scenarios. My point was that a good gaming citizen should probably avoid that obedience.
And yes, those that are mechanically easy to accomplish can be glossed over, regardless of whether or not they make people uncomfortable. Just as I don't know of any GMs requiring clerics to roleplay their daily prayers to Abadar, there's no reason to require a player to roleplay obedience to Lymnieris. The player might want to, but again, good gaming citizenship.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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You know, it occurs to me that a cult that has to kill one person a day would have a profound effect on a fantasy world. Keep in mind that most settlements are ~5000 people. One cultist, entering town would decimate it in a year, in a decade, everyone would be dead. Absalom maybe would be able to support a couple cultists as executioners, but 10 or more are quickly going to increase the deathrate by 1%, not a lot at first, but over time that's going to have an effect.
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Reading this thread makes me realize that I probably should have taken a closer look at Obediences before allowing them into organized play. When I first read through them, I thought it was something most GMs could handle effectively and work with the players to make them work. Apparently that is not the case with the few arguments I'm already reading here.
I must correct my earlier statements. I was myself adding a condition I should not have. I re-read the feat "Celestial Obedience" more closely:
If you ever fail to perform a daily obedience, you lose all access to the benefits and boons granted by this feat until you next perform the obedience.
Apparently there is no requirement to perform the obedience daily as long as you do not want the use of the boon that day. In a home campaign I would have the empyreal lord eventually stop granting powers to an indifferent worshiper, but not in PFS.
So in my Ragathiel example, the player would get the obedience boon(s) back as soon as he slays someone proven to have committed evil or unlawful deeds. And a Valani worshiper would only have to pay for days inside a scenario (very metagaming, but legal).
I don't think this is how it should work but my feelings on that are irrelevant. It is PFS, and we run RAW unless Mike or John says differently.
Having said that, there are still some obediences that can cause conflict between players and GMs in the rare instance that the GM feels that circumstances prevent the player from carrying out the obedience. The vast majority of the time the players will go along with the GM rulings but there will be some who feel they are unfairly being neutered. (A worshiper of Tanagaar who is told there simply are no mice or rats - or owls - in the area comes to mind. I can definitely see an argument about habitats of various animals breaking out.)
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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The mention of the Ragathiel worshiper in combination with the mention of rats, is giving me the mental image of a Ragathiel worshiper, at sea for several months, down in the bilges of the ship. "I saw that Twitchtail, you stole that crumb of biscuit from Scratchnose. Now you must die! For Ragathiel!"
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Some obediences may take less than a full hour. Ragathiel (Mr. Problematic again) - if you take an hour to kill someone, that's torture.
An obedience is typically an hour-long ritual that must be performed daily; . . .
My favorite (overheard) comment on that so far: "OK, but you can spend longer than an hour on an obedience if you want to, right?"
The wife's response: "If we're talking about Arshea, I'd be in favor of that."|
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The mention of the Ragathiel worshiper in combination with the mention of rats, is giving me the mental image of a Ragathiel worshiper, at sea for several months, down in the bilges of the ship. "I saw that Twitchtail, you stole that crumb of biscuit from Scratchnose. Now you must die! For Ragathiel!"
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Reading this thread makes me realize that I probably should have taken a closer look at Obediences before allowing them into organized play. When I first read through them, I thought it was something most GMs could handle effectively and work with the players to make them work. Apparently that is not the case with the few arguments I'm already reading here.
I will take a closer look at them this week and make sure that any that don't fit well into OP are removed in the Additional Resources update on Aug. 14.
On a side note, even if a class or archetype or whatever grants Leadership, it isn't legal in PFS.
I'd like to encourage you to please consider not coming down too hard on obediences. They are quirky and flavorful, but not really broken. Yes, the Ragathiel one is tough, but it's not the end of the world. You could complete it halfway through a scenario. As for the one that got the most attention early in the thread, Irez, it is fairly simple. The player just needs to bring a prepared deck of 12 cards and draw the top two. That takes mere seconds, but is interesting and a bit unique.