Quick question about Season 0 conversions...


GM Discussion

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I am going to keep this generic, so hopefully it doesn't spoil anything. However, I have a few questions on converting NPCs in Season 0...

1) How do we handle a melee combatant with Cleave? Do we treat it as the D&D 3.5 version, or the Pathfinder version?

2) Do NPC clerics get their Channels (negative or positive energy)? Does this replace turn/rebuke undead, or do we just use the 3.5 versions of turn/rebuke undead?

3) On the chronicle, if a magic item listed does not exist in Pathfinder (such as an Amulet of Good Health), what do we do? Convert it to the Pathfinder version, cross it off, or what?

4) If a monster in 3.5 was immune to criticals or precision damage, should we use the Pathfinder or 3.5 rules (undead, elementals, constructs)?

Thank you for your help.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

All my opinion...

Jack R Brown wrote:
1) How do we handle a melee combatant with Cleave? Do we treat it as the D&D 3.5 version, or the Pathfinder version?

Pathfinder version.

Quote:
2) Do NPC clerics get their Channels (negative or positive energy)? Does this replace turn/rebuke undead, or do we just use the 3.5 versions of turn/rebuke undead?

v.3.5 version. I think...

Quote:
3) On the chronicle, if a magic item listed does not exist in Pathfinder (such as an Amulet of Good Health), what do we do? Convert it to the Pathfinder version, cross it off, or what?

Convert it to the Pathfinder version. Gloves of dexterity should become a belt of incredible dexterity, for example.

Quote:
4) If a monster in 3.5 was immune to criticals or precision damage, should we use the Pathfinder or 3.5 rules (undead, elementals, constructs)?

Pathfinder version.

The rule of thumb I've used is that if a statblock refers to a specific v.3.5 rule (e.g. rebuke undead, bardic knowledge) then use that. If it refers to something that spans editions (feats, spells, weapons, creature type/subtype) then use the Pathfinder version. YMMV...

5/5 *

I agree with Paz's answers. Only edits we are allowed to make is to add their CMB and CMD stats.

Except for monsters which are in the pahtfinder bestiary, and they have the same CR rating as their 3.5 versions. In those cases you may use their entire new statblock from the bestiary.

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I wouldn't bother trying to use turn/rebuke undead with an NPC. Just don't bother trying to channel and you won't notice the difference.

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Adam Mogyorodi wrote:
I wouldn't bother trying to use turn/rebuke undead with an NPC. Just don't bother trying to channel and you won't notice the difference.

Yeah, I thought about that.

However, in this case, the cleric I am talked about has tactics that he heals his undead. Granted, he can still use inflict wounds spells, but I thought that the "heal" version of his negative channel would do that quite well.

If it is forbidden to add in the channels that he would have gotten in Pathfinder, that's fine. I just want to make sure that this is the case.

Thanks everyone for the help.

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Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play 4.3 §7 wrote:
In the meantime, scenarios are to be run with minimal changes by GMs, limited to adding CMB/CMD scores to NPCs and monsters and using newly combined skills such as Stealth and Perception instead of Move Silently and Spot. If a creature appears in the scenario that also appears in the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2, or Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 3 and maintains the same CR between both rules sets, you may use the Pathfinder RPG stats in place of the 3.5 stats. This is the only substitution allowed in these scenarios

So, no channel energy for clerics in Season 0.


Ilmakis wrote:
Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play 4.3 §7 wrote:
In the meantime, scenarios are to be run with minimal changes by GMs, limited to adding CMB/CMD scores to NPCs and monsters and using newly combined skills such as Stealth and Perception instead of Move Silently and Spot. If a creature appears in the scenario that also appears in the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2, or Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 3 and maintains the same CR between both rules sets, you may use the Pathfinder RPG stats in place of the 3.5 stats. This is the only substitution allowed in these scenarios
So, no channel energy for clerics in Season 0.

Whoah! Is that true? I've definitely messed that up a few times then.

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Jack R Brown wrote:

I am going to keep this generic, so hopefully it doesn't spoil anything. However, I have a few questions on converting NPCs in Season 0...

1) How do we handle a melee combatant with Cleave? Do we treat it as the D&D 3.5 version, or the Pathfinder version?

2) Do NPC clerics get their Channels (negative or positive energy)? Does this replace turn/rebuke undead, or do we just use the 3.5 versions of turn/rebuke undead?

3) On the chronicle, if a magic item listed does not exist in Pathfinder (such as an Amulet of Good Health), what do we do? Convert it to the Pathfinder version, cross it off, or what?

4) If a monster in 3.5 was immune to criticals or precision damage, should we use the Pathfinder or 3.5 rules (undead, elementals, constructs)?

Thank you for your help.

I disagree with PAZ. Substitute the entire NPC to PFRPG if they are name and CR equivalent, or use entirely 3.5 for the monster.

Makes for some strangeness in places.

My rule of thumb is to try to keep a given encounter entirely in one ruleset so that the enemies all behave self-consistently within the encounter. It seems to work Well Enough, and better than building hybrid encounters of part-pathfinder, part-OGL rules. If all the NPCs work in one ruleset and all the PCs work in the other, it's more consistent...

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Jack R Brown wrote:
4) If a monster in 3.5 was immune to criticals or precision damage, should we use the Pathfinder or 3.5 rules (undead, elementals, constructs)?

Monsters with a Pathfinder equivalent of equal CR are to be replaced with the Pathfinder version. Others use their 3.5 statblocks.

HOWEVER, unless a monster's stat block explicitly states that it's immune to crits/sneak attack, then it becomes a matter of the rules surrounding those topics, not a matter of the creature's stat block. So an undead creature using 3.5 stats will still be susceptible to crits/sneak attack unless its statblock actually says otherwise. Changing that wouldn't be running the 3.5 statblock, it would be changing the game rules.

At least, that's the way I see it.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

We're expected to have the D&D 3.5 Monster Manual to run the creatures. But I'm not sure we also need the 3.5 Players' Handbook and DMG. Four years into the Pathfinder RPG, I'm not sure how much we should be running these adventures in an unfamiliar game system.

I would be surprised if GMs who have been introduced to the hobby through the Pathfinder RPG, who have never run D&D 3.5, would be asked to learn that game system to run Season 0 NPCs. That is, if sleep is a full-round spell for the PCs, I think that it ought to be a full-round spell for the NPCs as well. (As Paz says, Cleave ought to work the same for both of them, too. Since NPCs get CMB and CMD, their combat maneuvers should follow the Pathfinder rules.)

So, I guess I'm of the opinion that it's weird running an NPC cleric with a whip such that the whip uses Pathfinder rules and her clerical domains use D&D 3.5 rules, particularly around newer players who are still trying to learn Pathfinder rules.

Barring any options to re-release Season 0 adventures in an updated form, I would advocate a change of campaign policy, to run the NPCs as Pathfinder characters of the same level, in all respects.

5/5 *

Chris Mortika wrote:
Barring any options to re-release Season 0 adventures in an updated form, I would advocate a change of campaign policy, to run the NPCs as Pathfinder characters of the same level, in all respects.

I would be 100% behind this change.

1/5 Contributor

As someone who never played 3.5 and owns none of the books for it, I think that sounds like a fine idea.

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Christopher Rowe wrote:
As someone who never played 3.5 and owns none of the books for it, I think that sounds like a fine idea.

All of the stat block and relevant rules are either in the adventures, or in the d20 SRD. In my understanding, the SRD versions of the monsters and feats should be the governing ones, NOT the ones in the PHB/DMG/MM, since this is OGL content.

Not owning the books is a non-starter argument based on this.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

TetsujinOni, I'm not trying to be snide, but I'm concerned: would you run these adventures under the 3.5 ruleset?

(With undead being immune to critical hits, and 8th level PC clerics with the Magic domain being able to use arcane items as if they were 4th-level wizards? Would PC sorcerers lose all their bloodline abilities?)

I'm just concerned that players have some understanding about how their characters work and reasonable expectations about how their enemies work. If they expect that the gnoll who just demonstrated it has Cleave is going to get a free second strike every time it hits, or that the evil cleric is going to be able to channel negative energy, and they make decisions based on those errors, I don't think they're getting a fair shake.

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Chris Mortika wrote:

TetsujinOni, I'm not trying to be snide, but I'm concerned: would you run these adventures under the 3.5 ruleset?

(With undead being immune to critical hits, and 8th level PC clerics with the Magic domain being able to use arcane items as if they were 4th-level wizards? Would PC sorcerers lose all their bloodline abilities?)

I'm just concerned that players have some understanding about how their characters work and reasonable expectations about how their enemies work. If they expect that the gnoll who just demonstrated it has Cleave is going to get a free second strike every time it hits, or that the evil cleric is going to be able to channel negative energy, and they make decisions based on those errors, I don't think they're getting a fair shake.

PCs operate under the usual PFRPG ruleset. NPCs that are substituted to PFRPG equivalents operate under the PFRPG ruleset. Enemies which are acting inconsistently to PFRPG expectations were described as seeming 'off', when I ran last with these conditions (Xeros). It was even a good adventure for having things seem 'off'.

I make sure to call out things which are different on NPCs who are running with 3.5 rules, but run the creatures that are 3.5-versions (almost, see below) ENTIRELY under 3.5 rules, as those were the basis of their calculated CR. They roll attacks the same way, etc. Combat maneuvers are the one place where I feel obligated to run the PFRPG ruleset instead of the 3.5 ruleset.

As I said, it's not the cleanest thing in the world, but I do endeavor to make sure it's fair and clear to the players what is going on when this happens. It made King Xeros a pretty entertaining piece of work to prep...

This is consistent with my understanding of how to run season 0 as instructed by the guide; if it sounds onerous, then I'm communicating clearly.

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Chris Mortika wrote:

TetsujinOni, I'm not trying to be snide, but I'm concerned: would you run these adventures under the 3.5 ruleset?

(With undead being immune to critical hits, and 8th level PC clerics with the Magic domain being able to use arcane items as if they were 4th-level wizards? Would PC sorcerers lose all their bloodline abilities?)

I'm just concerned that players have some understanding about how their characters work and reasonable expectations about how their enemies work. If they expect that the gnoll who just demonstrated it has Cleave is going to get a free second strike every time it hits, or that the evil cleric is going to be able to channel negative energy, and they make decisions based on those errors, I don't think they're getting a fair shake.

I cannot disagree with all of that, Chris.

The cleave you could hand-wave away, calling it the UC Cleaving Finish, but other stuff would be harder.

In the case of my NPC clerics, I'll be using the Pathfinder class stuff, but just hand-waving the Heavy Armor (as has been suggested more than once from the campaign leadership). I'll probably keep the domain abilities the same, as well, since they are called out in the tactics and stats blocks.

The only change to spells will be swapping Cure Minor Wounds (Orison) to be Stabilize (Orison)... even though this will leave some 0-level slots open. This, because Mark Moreland has commented that this is the legal substitution (sorry, don't have the link).

Other than that, I'll be leaving things pretty much the way they are stated in the 3.5 SRD... but making sure we are using creature templates from Pathfinder (if that makes sense)... example, Undead, Constructs, and Elements will be susceptible to sneak attacks and crits.

Hope this all makes sense. Keeps the scenario balanced to its original balance, and also keeps the distinct flavor of Pathfinder!

EDIT: Of course, assuming I don't hear otherwise from MJM or my VOs.

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Jack R Brown wrote:
The only change to spells will be swapping Cure Minor Wounds (Orison) to be Stabilize (Orison)... even though this will leave some 0-level slots open. This, because Mark Moreland has commented that this is the legal substitution (sorry, don't have the link).

Citation.

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Jack R Brown wrote:


Hope this all makes sense. Keeps the scenario balanced to its original balance, and also keeps the distinct flavor of Pathfinder!

I disagree - this makes the scenario easier than designed in nearly all cases.

And they're already pretty nerfed easy.

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TetsujinOni wrote:
Jack R Brown wrote:


Hope this all makes sense. Keeps the scenario balanced to its original balance, and also keeps the distinct flavor of Pathfinder!

I disagree - this makes the scenario easier than designed in nearly all cases.

And they're already pretty nerfed easy.

Please explain.

I am still using the 3.5 hp for everything.

In fact, if anything, using the clerics as of Pathfinder (where they have negative energy channel instead of rebuke/control undead), will make them more powerful.

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1. A PF cleric vs a 3.5 cleric will have a different CR so you cannot substitute them.

2. The CR of an undead, elemental, plant, construct, etc in 3.5 includes their various 'undead traits' items. If you change the package of traits they have without converting entirely (because they have a new CR with PFRPG traits), you have changed the creature from its strength relative to its CR.

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Jack, I think that TetsunjinOni is suggesting that keeping a D&D 3.5 character untouched, while allowing the PCs to use all the player-goodies in the Pathfinder rules-set, makes the adventures easier than the original authors had intended.

(The human sorcerers who first stepped foot onto the deck of the Hydra's Fang didn't have bloodline powers, had only d4 hit dice, and didn't have a floating +2 to add to their attributes.)

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Chris Mortika wrote:

Jack, I think that TetsunjinOni is suggesting that keeping a D&D 3.5 character untouched, while allowing the PCs to use all the player-goodies in the Pathfinder rules-set, makes the adventures easier than the original authors had intended.

(The human sorcerers who first stepped foot onto the deck of the Hydra's Fang didn't have bloodline powers, had only d4 hit dice, and didn't have a floating +2 to add to their attributes.)

I'm more particularly concerned where there are templating changes, like the crit/sneak immunity changes between editions. 3.5 monster CR for creatures with that were based on their possession of immunity to sneak attack, for example, and were intended to pressure the fighters with dialable power attack and the wizards to have to deal with those opponents. Other examples exist.

Yes, it gets REALLY weird when there's significant differences in level 1 spells, like entangle and grease. The line of RAW here is kinda treacherous and weird.

A level 6 cleric in PFRPG is CR 5. It would be CR6 in 3.5. You cannot 'make up' the difference by making it a PFRPG cleric 7, and their CRs are not equal, so by the rules we have, you're required to run them as a 3.5 cleric. THe same would be true of any other combination of race and class due to the different ECL => CR mapping that is used in 3.5.

I understand the weirdness this provides, chris, and treat it as "for this adventure you're fighting things that are a little different than what you're used to". THe difficulty shifts are a little scattershot, but as long as they are clearly stated when they diverge, it seems to be the rule we are faced with.

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ok... got some clarification from my V-C.

Clerics do not get their channel, and, if I read his email correct, they cannot use domain abilities that have been replaced. He seemed pretty frustrated by it... as I am as well.

Guess, I am going to avoid Season 0 scenarios (at least to run...) from now on, unless the rules change.

SIGH

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