Darkness is a spell and a lighting level.
Oh? News to me.
Spell names are always italicized in Pathfinder rules. If it's not italicized, it's not referring to a spell.So strange the creators of this game would use the word darkness. So strange.Sunrod
Price 2 gp; Weight 1 lb.
This 1-foot-long, gold-tipped iron rod glows brightly when struck (a standard action). It sheds normal light in a 30-foot radius and increases the light level by one step for an additional 30 feet beyond that area (darkness becomes dim light and dim light becomes normal light). A sunrod does not increase the light level in normal light or bright light. It glows for 6 hours, after which the gold tip is burned out and worthless.
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Darkness is a spell and a lighting level.Oh? News to me.
In any case, the Official FAQ (which has already been both quoted and linked in this thread) is very explicit and even uses sunrods as an example of something which does NOT increase the light level within the area of the darkness spell.
If you believe the FAQ to be in error, you should probably post in Website Feedback or just PM Jason Bulmahn, as no one in this thread can change it. Otherwise, accept the FAQ's clear demonstration that you are wrong on this point.
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Boots of Levitation
Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot feet; Price 7,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
These soft leather boots are incredibly light and comfortable, with thin soles reinforced by strips of tough hide that provide an unexpected amount of support and protection to the foot. On command, these boots allow the wearer to levitate as if she had cast levitate on herself.
Bolding mine.
From all the way back in the Core Rulebook, so it's not a new thing. When "levitate" is italicized, it's referring to the spell. When not italicized, it's referring to the common English meaning of the word.
Why wouldn't they just say its a torch except you smack it against something and it lasts for 6 hours?
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Why wouldn't they just say its a torch except you smack it against something and it lasts for 6 hours?
Perhaps because it's standard practice for light sources to specify their own details?
Speaking of comparisons to torches (all bolding mine, otherwise the formatting is as it appears in the rules):
...shedding normal light in a 20-foot radius and increasing the light level by one step for an additional 20 feet beyond that area (darkness becomes dim light and dim light becomes normal light).
illuminates a small area, increasing the light level in a 5-foot radius by one step (darkness becomes dim light and dim light becomes normal light).
...providing normal light in a 15-foot radius and increasing the light level by one step for an additional 15 feet beyond that area (darkness becomes dim light and dim light becomes normal light).
...provides normal light in a 60-foot cone and increases the light level by one step in the area beyond that, out to a 120-foot cone (darkness becomes dim light and dim light becomes normal light).
...sheds normal light in a 30-foot radius and increases the light level by one step for an additional 30 feet beyond that area (darkness becomes dim light and dim light becomes normal light).
See how they're all using the same wording in regards to darkness that the sunrod uses? Do you also believe that all of these will successfully increase the light level within the area of a darkness spell?
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Jiggy, I don't think you have fully examined what your stated belief actually means for any situation involving a Darkness spell.
This spell causes an object to radiate darkness out to a 20-foot radius. This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step, from bright light to normal light, from normal light to dim light, or from dim light to darkness. This spell has no effect in an area that is already dark. Creatures with light vulnerability or sensitivity take no penalties in normal light. All creatures gain concealment (20% miss chance) in dim light. All creatures gain total concealment (50% miss chance) in darkness. Creatures with darkvision can see in an area of dim light or darkness without penalty. Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell's effect is blocked until the covering is removed.
This spell does not stack with itself. Darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level.
I think one of the most important parts of the spell are that Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness.
So, as your first step in determining the so-called ambient light level, you have to negate any lighting increases from any nonmagical source of light affecting the area of Darkness before the spell is cast. To me, taken to that extreme, it means that the normal ambient level of light in the area of effect of a Darkness spell is automatically going to have to be darkness.
Why do I say that?
Assuming you don't have to deal with a magical light source of higher level, there is no source of light that can affect the area covered by the Darkness spell.
Nonmagical light sources are effectively rendered null and void by the Darkness spell when it is cast. So, no light sources in the area of effect, no nonmagical light can increase the light level in the area of effect.
The Sun is nonmagical light, agreed? Therefore, sunlight is not going to be raising the light level in an area of Darkness. Neither are torches, lanterns, sun rods, camp fires, or any other source of light. Therefore, I cannot see any way that the ambient light level, in an area affected by the Darkness spell, can start at any level except darkness.
Yuck.
Overall, I think this means that either there is some sort of basic mis-interpretation in what I am understanding from the spell effect, or the whole Light/Dark family of spells needs to be errataed into something that makes sense.
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The Sun is nonmagical light, agreed?
Not agreed. Since the FAQ tells us to default to the ambient "natural" light level before applying the step-based reduction, I treat the sun as being a special case that is outside both the "nonmagical light sources" and "magical light sources" categories.
Now reevaluate how my position plays out, and you might find it more acceptable.
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I would take the lines: " Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness." to apply to the sources only if they are in the area. Otherwise, the sources are what gives you the "ambient light level". You would then adjust the "ambient light level" created by the source in the area of the spell. If you could cover the sun with the AOE of a darkness effect, you would be able to supress it.
I can see some merit to this idea. Actually, it's pretty closely linked to my own view. Both ideas look at the lines you quoted, and come up with a reason for the sun to not be affected by them. One way does so by saying the sun is a special case, the other by saying that any light source (including the sun) gets a pass if the point of origin is outside the darkness radius.
My only issue with your (and JohnF's, if I recall) version is the idea of an enemy casting deeper darkness in an unlit cave (taking the party into supernatural shadow) and the party responding by having everyone grab their torches/wayfinders/whatever and chucking them as far as they can in opposite directions so that there's always at least one or two that are "ambient", causing the DD to only drop the cave to "dark" and letting everyone use darkvision (natural or potion-based). Now the only reason to ever bother with daylight is if the room is too small to flank the DD with light sources.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I would take the lines: " Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness." to apply to the sources only if they are in the area. Otherwise, the sources are what gives you the "ambient light level". You would then adjust the "ambient light level" created by the source in the area of the spell. If you could cover the sun with the AOE of a darkness effect, you would be able to supress it.
Is the source (magical or nonmagical) in the area of darkness? no? then it is not effected by the spell - the source isn't in the area. The light from it (the source) is only effected if it is in the area (because it is the "ambient light level").
Yep. That's the position I espoused (albeit not as well described) somewhat earlier in the thread.
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At least that position gives a definition in game terms for ambient light that coincides with the actual definition.
Jiggy: The enemy can always counter that tactic by:
1) picking up/extinguishing the light sources thrown.
2) Moving the deeper darkness to engulf the sources.
3) Moving so that the sources give dim light within the the effect thus moving back to supernatural darkness.
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Looking some more at this passage:
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
I'm now thinking that "in an area of darkness" qualifies "increase the light level" rather than qualifying "sources of light".
These rules are stated in this format:
"X does Y in location Z."
If the "sources outside the area still affect the light inside the area" theory were the intent, we'd instead have:
"X in location Z does Y."
So in the end I think the interpretation where a torch outside the radius gets to keep affecting the lighting within the radius just doesn't fit.
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This is why I'm of the opinion that sunlight is always "ambient", and is never affected by either of the "X sources don't raise the light level" clauses in darkness.
Basically, the sun is a special case. And really, that seems appropriate. It's the friggin' sun. ;)
Also, it seems to fit the use of the term "ambient natural light" in the FAQ.
The way I see it is that sunlight/moonlight are always the ambient light (getting reduced on a 'step' basis), while spells and torches and whatever are always going to fail to improve the light conditions in an area of darkness (unless it's a higher-level light spell, of course).
I'm not aware of any situations that become weird under this model.
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Does reflected sunlight count? If I stand outside a cave and use a large mirror to reflect light into a cavern, and then cast darkness, is the reflected sunlight suppressed?
It would still be treated as ambient natural light (it's still sunlight, after all) and be lowered by the appropriate number of steps.
And IMO, it seems pretty appropriate that if you want to pierce the darkness of the evil necromancer in his cave, one of your options would be to bring the sun to him.
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The issue is that people are creating a new definition for ambient light. Mt gut instinct is that if the game developers do not define a term with game mechanics then we go off of the common real life definition for the term.
As close to a real world definition as we can get
So I am more inclined to see wall sconces, torches attached to walls, fluorescent lichen, the sun, etc. as all sources of ambient light. If the light source is part of the described scene it is an ambient source. What wouldn't be ambient is any non permanent source cast, carried, or brought into the scene by a creature.
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If the light source is part of the described scene it is an ambient source.
I used to do it that way, but there are some serious issues.
The biggest is probably that darkness doesn't just say it shuts down nonmagical light sources, it also gives a couple of examples (torches and lanterns). So if you have any torches (whether on wall sconces or not) continue to contribute light within the darkness area, then you're directly contradicting the rules.
That means that if you want to keep the "anything described in the scene is ambient" view, then you have to amend it to "anything described in the scene other than a torch or lantern". Which then means that if there's a torch in the middle of the room and a ring of candles around it, then the candles contribute while the torches don't?
Furthermore, what if I take the "ambient" light with me? Say I fight a foe who uses darkness and see that the [insert light source here] was not completely shut down. If I take that light source with me into the next room and face darkness again, how are you going to treat it?
So I am more inclined to see wall sconces, torches attached to walls, fluorescent lichen, the sun, etc. as all sources of ambient light. If the light source is part of the described scene it is an ambient source.
I generally agree. This is one of those cases where I would say, "The rules don't state what 'ambient' is so that the GM (or the scenario author) is free to state what 'ambient' is."
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Also, it's just easier to keep track of as a judge, and easier to explain to the Players. Where's the spell at? where's the light sources?
Actually, you've got it backwards: your way, where light sources are only shut down if they're inside the radius and instead get "stepped down" if they're outside the radius, requires you to keep track of exactly where everything is, and do a lot of recalculating of light levels across different overlapping areas of effect.
But the other way (where the source's location doesn't matter), all the GM has to know is whether or not there's any sunlight in the area. Done.
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Does reflected sunlight count? If I stand outside a cave and use a large mirror to reflect light into a cavern, and then cast darkness, is the reflected sunlight suppressed?It would still be treated as ambient natural light (it's still sunlight, after all) and be lowered by the appropriate number of steps.
And IMO, it seems pretty appropriate that if you want to pierce the darkness of the evil necromancer in his cave, one of your options would be to bring the sun to him.
How many times must sunlight be reflected before it is no longer "natural"?
And how would you handle light generated by a forest fire? Natural? Non-natural?
Lightning?
Besides, how does the spell determine the source of each particular photon?
Overall, I think light, darkness, and the related spells, need a Paizo blog post clarification. Not an FAQ, not enough room in an FAQ if you want to keep them concise. Not an errata, unless something somewhere is incorrect and needs to be fixed, but just a well written clarification of the existing rules, and the interaction of the various spells that affect light levels.
Things needing clarification:
Ambient
Natural
Non-magical sources of light, or what type of light source the Sun is.
Reflected sunlight, both from mirrors and the Moon, including a statement of hen it is no longer considered to be Sunlight and becomes something else. (Obviously, one reflection, from the moon, immediately changes Sunlight to Moonlight, but how about mirrors?)
Besides, how does the spell determine the source of each particular photon?
The spell doesn't care about photons. No one does.
The GM just makes a decision. Simple as that.
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The way I have always done it is determine the lighting conditions without torches, lanterns, sunrods, and spells. This is the "ambient" light. This basically allows sunlight, moonlight, starlight, and such to dictate the original light level.
These sources of light (unlike torches, sunrods, and spells) are not negated by spells such as darkness, rather the light condition they provide is simply decreased.
This means that a darkness spell cast outside at noon, simply lowers the light level to dim light. Deeper Darkness to dark.
But, Will, if those are nonmagical light sources, they are unable to raise the level of light in an area of darkness, per the spell and FAQ on sun rods.
Besides, how do you treat light from sources outside of the area of the darkness spell?
But, Will, if those are nonmagical light sources, they are unable to raise the level of light in an area of darkness, per the spell and FAQ on sun rods.
Since neither the rules nor the FAQ defines the sun, moon, or stars as either magical or mundane light, that leaves it open to GM interpretation.
That's why I interpret the sun, moon, and stars as "illumination level" light and suddenly darkness works the way it's intended to.
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A little late but here.
Darkness: Can adding additional sunrods to the area of the spell increase the light level?
No, sunrods can never increase the light level of an area of darkness because they are not magical sources of light. In such an area, it automatically defaults to the ambient natural light level, and then reduces it one step.
—Jason Bulmahn, 10/21/10
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If you don't call light provided by the sun, moon, stars and such "ambient light" you really aren't left with much that could be defined as such.
Fun trivia:
The term "ambient" to describe lighting conditions never appears in the rules, despite it being used constantly in these discussions. The only "official" place it appears is that FAQ, right next to "natural". That means that as far as official Paizo-written text is concerned, "ambient" and "natural" are on equal footing. I find that very helpful in figuring this all out (coming to what I believe to be the same conclusion you described, if I followed you correctly).