I had something come up in a game last night, and I have yet to see a concrete answer anywhere on the boards. Basically, a dragon performed a crush attack which automatically pins the opponent. My question is, if the dragon is pinning the opponent (with its four limbs, presumably) can it attack other opponents with its bite or tail?
Since pinning is a result of a grapple, the grapple rules would seem to apply here. But attacking a different opponent is not a possible action according to the grapple rules (at least not that I can see). It would seem silly that a Gargantuan dragon can grapple a dwarf but would be forbidden by the grapple rules from performing a tail sweep on nearby opponents.
(I'm more than happy to make this a house rule if necessary, but I'd be interested if its ever been addressed in the rules.)
Anyone know of any rules that apply here?
Thanks
Greg
4) On its turn, a pinned creature may try to escape. A character that makes a successful opposed grapple check (as a melee attack) or Escape Artist check (as a a standard action) is no longer pinned but is stil grappling with the dragon. If the character makes two successful checks against the dragon, the character has escaped the grapple entirely.
5) On the dragon's turn, it can choose to maintain the pin or to release pinned characters. If it tries to maintain the pin, it makes a single grapple check opposed by crappie checks made by all pinned opponents. Creatures who beat the dragon's grapple check take no damage, while other creatures take the dragon's full crush damage. If the dragon decides not to maintain the pin, it can act normally, without regard to the creatures that share its space (since they are necessarily at least three sizes smaller than it is).
I had something come up in a game last night, and I have yet to see a concrete answer anywhere on the boards. Basically, a dragon performed a crush attack which automatically pins the opponent. My question is, if the dragon is pinning the opponent (with its four limbs, presumably) can it attack other opponents with its bite or tail?
Since pinning is a result of a grapple, the grapple rules would seem to apply here. But attacking a different opponent is not a possible action according to the grapple rules (at least not that I can see). It would seem silly that a Gargantuan dragon can grapple a dwarf but would be forbidden by the grapple rules from performing a tail sweep on nearby opponents.
(I'm more than happy to make this a house rule if necessary, but I'd be interested if its ever been addressed in the rules.)
Anyone know of any rules that apply here?
Thanks
Greg
Well you can't grapple a foe that is 2 or more sizes larger than you and crush only works on foes that are 3 or more sizes smaller than you. I would suggest then to treat it as a swallow. That is the target is considered grappled/pin while the dragon is not. Now if he maintains the pin on the following rounds, then his options reduce due to now treating it as a normal grapple.
Well you can't grapple a foe that is 2 or more sizes larger than you .
Where is this written? It makes sense but I can't find it in the PH, the Rules Compendium or the on-line SRD.
and crush only works on foes that are 3 or more sizes smaller than you. I would suggest then to treat it as a swallow. That is the target is considered grappled/pin while the dragon is not.
This is kinda what I was thinking, a big enough creature should be able to handle a pinned opponent and use an extra appendage on others.
Now if he maintains the pin on the following rounds, then his options reduce due to now treating it as a normal grapple.
Sorry for seeming obtuse, but why would it be considered a normal grapple on later rounds? What's changed?
Greg
4) On its turn, a pinned creature may try to escape. A character that makes a successful opposed grapple check (as a melee attack) or Escape Artist check (as a a standard action) is no longer pinned but is stil grappling with the dragon. If the character makes two successful checks against the dragon, the character has escaped the grapple entirely.
5) On the dragon's turn, it can choose to maintain the pin or to release pinned characters. If it tries to maintain the pin, it makes a single grapple check opposed by crappie checks made by all pinned opponents. Creatures who beat the dragon's grapple check take no damage, while other creatures take the dragon's full crush damage. If the dragon decides not to maintain the pin, it can act normally, without regard to the creatures that share its space (since they are necessarily at least three sizes smaller than it is).
I didn't think to check the Draconomicon. But it basically confirms my original suspicion, that the rules don't support the dragon crushing and then attacking with its tail or bite.
Greg
4) On its turn, a pinned creature may try to escape. A character that makes a successful opposed grapple check (as a melee attack) or Escape Artist check (as a a standard action) is no longer pinned but is stil grappling with the dragon. If the character makes two successful checks against the dragon, the character has escaped the grapple entirely.
5) On the dragon's turn, it can choose to maintain the pin or to release pinned characters. If it tries to maintain the pin, it makes a single grapple check opposed by crappie checks made by all pinned opponents. Creatures who beat the dragon's grapple check take no damage, while other creatures take the dragon's full crush damage. If the dragon decides not to maintain the pin, it can act normally, without regard to the creatures that share its space (since they are necessarily at least three sizes smaller than it is).I didn't think to check the Draconomicon. But it basically confirms my original suspicion, that the rules don't support the dragon crushing and then attacking with its tail or bite.
Greg
I just saw my typo, don't know if it was autocorrect or subconscious, but it made me laugh.
I just saw my typo, don't know if it was autocorrect or subconscious, but it made me laugh.4) On its turn, a pinned creature may try to escape. A character that makes a successful opposed grapple check (as a melee attack) or Escape Artist check (as a a standard action) is no longer pinned but is stil grappling with the dragon. If the character makes two successful checks against the dragon, the character has escaped the grapple entirely.
5) On the dragon's turn, it can choose to maintain the pin or to release pinned characters. If it tries to maintain the pin, it makes a single grapple check opposed by crappie checks made by all pinned opponents. Creatures who beat the dragon's grapple check take no damage, while other creatures take the dragon's full crush damage. If the dragon decides not to maintain the pin, it can act normally, without regard to the creatures that share its space (since they are necessarily at least three sizes smaller than it is).I didn't think to check the Draconomicon. But it basically confirms my original suspicion, that the rules don't support the dragon crushing and then attacking with its tail or bite.
Greg
I assumed you were editorializing. :)
So the consensus seems to be that even while pinning, a creature with an extra appendage can't use it against a different opponent?
Guess its house rule time!
Greg