the race building system in the advanced race guide seems rather flawed. the racial ability prices seem tailored to making a core race equal about 10ish.
at the same time, because of how skewed the prices are, it makes races such as the aasimaar, suli and fetchling, look more overpowered than they actually are.
at the same time it charges for languages which is a commonly ignored restriction.
and the type and bonus based prerequisites seem a pointless way to balance abilities based on fluff. on a system where a 10 point race, can be drastically stronger than their 20 point counterpart.
how many of you actually use the race builder?
and how many of you, like myself, go by your gut?
I use the point system as a guide. The problem is that if you want to make a truly unique and interesting race, you have to make custom racial traits, which means the whole points system is more of a guideline to determine general power levels instead of a hard rule.
The point values are like a bad joke. I'd go with "gut" any day over the RP system.
Aside from the points being just...wrong, there's the problem that no points-based system can ever really work. You can price negatives like slow speed as "fairly" as you want, but some caster with all day flight (or "all combat, every combat, and a mount for overland travel") is just going to be able to exploit it for free extra points anyway, for example.
Also what j b said.
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yeah, the system itself seems to me to work more as a way of changing existing classes up and down (and arbitrarily make the existing core races look more balanced than they really are) than creating new ones from whole cloth. Most of what is given isn't really conducive for creating new and interesting abilities for a completely new race.
Edit: So, in response to the OP, I mainly use my gut when balancing a race and use the race creator as an admittedly flawed guide to do that.
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My biggest problem with it is that all the abilities you can buy are just all the abilities that all the pre-existing races already have. You can read the chapter and actually tell which race already has this or that ability. If you want to make a new race, you're really just cut-and-pasting abilties from other races, not creating anything new at all.
Granted, I have no idea how you'd ever realistically implement a system where you can give your character whatever ability you can dream up and somehow balance it power-wise, but I don't really see the appeal in turning racial abilities into a catalog where you pick and choose what you like.
It's a guideline.
The only times I used the racebuilder is when I'm trying to convert races from other games into Pathfinder (Gorons, for example). I'll give them the usuall skill bonuses and proficiencies until I get an amount of points that seems right and then give them their game/story specific ability.
I bought the Race Creation Guide and several other 'Race Builders' over the last few years and 'playtested' the ARG. Heck, I even did my own! At their best, such aids can only give a general idea of balance. Knowing what others think of the values helps me nail down the loose thoughts and cram concepts onto paper. Personally, I use the entries in crafting a race's mechanics. I also follow Umbral Reaver's suggestion of paying for the 'better' races with character points.
EG: my Eberron inspired Changelings get the 6 point shapechange, but a campaign specific villain race gets a far weaker and less versatile version. Not all powers or ability rearrangements are equal, as a +4 to Str and a +4 to Cha are hardly on par. I also have issues with the restrictions on how many bennies you get based on which category you're in, yet their is no minimum points in each. A monstrous race can be 10 points, just like a standard one, yet get the same number of funky abilities. I still do not see a difference. Why not just define every race as Monstrous?
Like anything else in this world, make it work for you.
I use it as a guideline as well. I usually omit things like subtype requirements because those just limit what kind of races you can make. I mean why shouldn't a non-elf have immunity to sleep and a +2 bonus to saves vs enchantments?
The point values are like a bad joke. I'd go with "gut" any day over the RP system.
Aside from the points being just...wrong, there's the problem that no points-based system can ever really work. You can price negatives like slow speed as "fairly" as you want, but some caster with all day flight (or "all combat, every combat, and a mount for overland travel") is just going to be able to exploit it for free extra points anyway, for example.
Also what j b said.
Yeah but he can also exploit that with a standard gnome/halfling/dwarf character, for all of whom the slow speed has been taken into consideration when balancing them against the other core races
I use it as a guideline as well. I usually omit things like subtype requirements because those just limit what kind of races you can make. I mean why shouldn't a non-elf have immunity to sleep and a +2 bonus to saves vs enchantments?
Yeah but he can also exploit that with a standard gnome/halfling/dwarf character, for all of whom the slow speed has been taken into consideration when balancing them against the other core racesThe point values are like a bad joke. I'd go with "gut" any day over the RP system.
Aside from the points being just...wrong, there's the problem that no points-based system can ever really work. You can price negatives like slow speed as "fairly" as you want, but some caster with all day flight (or "all combat, every combat, and a mount for overland travel") is just going to be able to exploit it for free extra points anyway, for example.
Also what j b said.
It also assumes that players are going to be allowed to make their own unique races for the purpose of min-maxing their characters, which I know I would never allow.
I use it as a guideline as well. I usually omit things like subtype requirements because those just limit what kind of races you can make. I mean why shouldn't a non-elf have immunity to sleep and a +2 bonus to saves vs enchantments?
Same.
My homebrew world is stock full of non-standard races put together with the ARG - including but not limited to a PC-race-level Aranea, conversions of 3.5's Yuan-Ti, Dragon Compendium's Lupin, Races of the Wild's Raptoran, and Oriental Adventures-style Naga, and a variant Lizardfolk with Velociraptor-like traits.
I use the race builder to cobble together appropriate-looking traits, calculate up some of the bonuses, mine for inspiration, and otherwise put things together, but it's all held together with a healthy dose of "eyeball it" and ignoring some of the more bizarre prerequisites or limitations, and some shuffling and elbowing of costs.
It's a good starting point, as many have said, but it requires a bit of judgement. Still an excellent resource to have available.
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It also assumes that players are going to be allowed to make their own unique races for the purpose of min-maxing their characters, which I know I would never allow.I use it as a guideline as well. I usually omit things like subtype requirements because those just limit what kind of races you can make. I mean why shouldn't a non-elf have immunity to sleep and a +2 bonus to saves vs enchantments?
Yeah but he can also exploit that with a standard gnome/halfling/dwarf character, for all of whom the slow speed has been taken into consideration when balancing them against the other core racesThe point values are like a bad joke. I'd go with "gut" any day over the RP system.
Aside from the points being just...wrong, there's the problem that no points-based system can ever really work. You can price negatives like slow speed as "fairly" as you want, but some caster with all day flight (or "all combat, every combat, and a mount for overland travel") is just going to be able to exploit it for free extra points anyway, for example.
Also what j b said.
exactly, for me it's a GMs tool, nothing more.
What I don't get is if the prerequisites don't make any sense, abilities are costed assuming they'll be used in whatever way is most powerful even though the system isn't meant for that and costs don't accurately represent the worth abilities, what kind of guidance does it provide?
The Guide to Building Races Badly. Wonderful. I love the book, but I have absolutely no use for that section. The existing races make a FAR better guide.
what kind of guidance does it provide?
A list of the options, which also serves as a framework/outline for creating more of the same (if this kind of ability is worth X, this slightly weaker/stronger version should be Y, and this variation of the ability should be about the same, etc. etc. etc.), and a pool of options, many of which don't currently exist or the reader might not be aware of.
It's a resource, should be treated as such, and not held as the be-all end-all, but it's far from useless, and does what it's intended to do. Could it have been done better? Possibly yeah. Not sure what I would have done different myself, other than a few minor things. (And a few Major - like bumping up the cost on the Human Bonus Feat. Waaaaaay underpriced IMO.)
Yeah but he can also exploit that with a standard gnome/halfling/dwarf character, for all of whom the slow speed has been taken into consideration when balancing them against the other core races
There's a difference between a whole packaged race that has some various features all together and a points-based system that purports to evaluate the worth of the individual components for creating "balanced" races of your own. My point was any points-based system is doomed to not work. I don't see how using this book's rules leaves a person any better off than just throwing together a race on their own and comparing it to the existing ones. I do see a danger in assigning a hard value to specific racial features to then get exploited, though.
And I really don't think the gnome's slow speed was taken into account when "balancing the core races." The core races are clearly not equally balanced. I'm not saying they have to be. But it's not like gnomes being slow had any particular effect on what racial features they got. Especially with the core races, Paizo was mostly just trying to stick to the spirit of what 3E had already laid out.
My homebrew world is stock full of non-standard races put together with the ARG - including but not limited to a PC-race-level Aranea, conversions of 3.5's Yuan-Ti, Dragon Compendium's Lupin, Races of the Wild's Raptoran, and Oriental Adventures-style Naga, and a variant Lizardfolk with Velociraptor-like traits.Okay, now post a few, I'm still looking for interesting races to add!
Orthos, the problem I have with that is the costs are so badly off. They charge a lot for some really insignificant things and, as you say, undercharge for some quite powerful things.
The great majority of options available to normal power level races seem to already exist on a race and most of them have needless limitations.
The options for more powerful races seem... awkward. What's the point in a half construct, for example? It doesn't make constructs playable as normal characters and it's still extremely inconvenient but powerful, so why not go with the full construct type?
It doesn't so much open up options as give you a long list of things you're not allowed to have and arbitrarily cost a bunch of abilities whose power depends greatly on context. If you ask me, the whole thing was a mistake.
Half Constricts are extremely fragile due to a lack of constitution scores. they have a few type based immunities. but they can't be ressurected, and have all the penalties of a nonexistant constitution and none of the advantages. you also cut the benefits of positive energy in half, which means you have to have fast healing to heal between fights.
Half Undead also have all the drawbacks of undeath with none of the advantages.
negative energy affinity as a weakness should be priced a lot cheaper and give you much more points to spend, because it makes finding worthwhile healing next to impossible in a by the book adventure path without also purchasing fast healing.
I like using it, but then again, I'm willing to create custom race traits, and I'm not terribly concerned with balance. I also tend to ignore the subtype requirements as necessary to build what I want. Goodness knows the book ignores them often enough.
So far I've built and played a pc level Alu-fiend race and made several other races/ racial variations just waiting to be used.
The new Inner Sea Bestiary has a fun construct variant under the Android entry.
Okay, now post a few, I'm still looking for interesting races to add!
Heh, fair enough - here's the Naga.
* Type: Naga are Monstrous Humanoids with the reptilian and nagastrani subtypes.
* Size: Naga are Large creatures and gain a +1 bonus to CMD and CMB, a -1 penalty on attack rolls, and -1 AC due to their size. While in their alternate Humanoid form Naga are Medium and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
** Undersized Weapons: Although a Naga is Large, its upper torso is the same size as that of a Medium humanoid's upper torso. As a result, it wields weapons and wears armor as if it were one size category smaller than its actual size. When in their alternate Humanoid form this ability is negated, allowing them to wear Medium equipment then as well.
* Base Speed (Fast Speed): Naga have a base speed of 40 feet. The sinuous motion of their coils allows them to move at a much quicker rate than walking. Naga in their human forms are reduced to movement at 30 feet.
* Languages: Naga begin play speaking Common and Naga. Naga with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Draconic, Ignan, Tengu, or Terran.
* Armored: A Naga's scales give them a +1 bonus to Natural Armor. They retain this bonus while in their humanoid form.
* Poison Resistance: Naga gain a racial bonus on saving throws against poison effects equal to their Hit Dice.
* Darkvision: Naga can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
* Predatory Nature: Naga have a predatory appearance and reptilian scent that unnerves most animals. They take a -2 penalty to all Handle Animal and Ride checks unless dealing with reptiles.
* Affiliation: While insular and reclusive when dealing with outsiders, Naga are extremely at home with dealing with their own kind, or with creatures like their kind. Naga gain a +2 bonus to Diplomacy when dealing with creatures with the reptilian or nagastrani subtypes.
* Survivalist: Naga gain a +2 racial bonus to Survival.
* Change Shape: A Naga can assume the appearance of a single form of a single humanoid race of Medium size, usually Human. The form is static and cannot be changed each time it takes this form. The creature gains a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear as the member of the race whose appearance it assumes. Changing its shape is a standard action. This trait otherwise functions as alter self, save that the creature does not adjust its ability scores. Naga in their humanoid forms are often noticeable by the fact that the scales on their hands, waist, and legs do not vanish when they change shape; unless willing to reveal their nature, shapeshifted Naga tend to wear gloves and concealing clothing in their human forms.
And the Glaistig, a race of hooved fey famed as wardens and defenders.
* Type: Glaistigs are Fey creatures.
* Size: Glaistigs are Medium creatures and receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
* Base Speed: Glaistigs have a base speed of 30 feet.
* Languages: Glaistigs begin play speaking Common and Sylvan. Glaistigs with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Aklo, Auran, Draconic, Elven, Gnomish, Orc, and Terran.
* Damage Reduction: Glaistigs have the tough skin of warrior fey, pierced only by the touch of iron. Glaistig characters have DR 5/cold iron.
* Low-Light Vision: Glaistigs have low-light vision, allowing them to see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
* Healthy: Glaistigs have tough immune systems, allowing them to live on nearly anything much like the goats they resemble from the waist down. Glaistigs gain a +4 bonus on Fortitude saves against disease and poison, including magical diseases.
* Mountaineer: Glaistigs are immune to altitude sickness and do not lose their Dexterity bonus to AC when making Climb checks or Acrobatics checks to cross narrow or slippery surfaces. Nearly all Glaistigs live in rocky or mountainous regions and they are used to traversing treacherous terrain.
* Protector: Glaistigs are the sentinels of the fey, trained from birth to battle the enemies of their people. Glaistigs add +1 to the caster level of any abjuration spells they cast, and also gain the following spell-like abilities: constant—nondetection; 1/day—faerie fire, obscure object, sanctuary. The caster level for these effects is equal to the user’s character level.
* Stubborn: Glaistigs gain a +2 racial bonus on Will saving throws to resist spells and spell-like abilities of the enchantment (charm) and enchantment (compulsion) subschools. In addition, if the Glaistig fails such a save, it receives another save 1 round later to prematurely end the effect (assuming the spell or spell-like ability has a duration greater than 1 round). This second save is made at the same DC as the first. If the Glaistig has a similar ability from another source (such as a rogue’s slippery mind class feature), it can only use one of these abilities per round, but can try the other on the second round if the first reroll ability fails.
* Treacherous Earth (Su): Once per day, a Glaistig can will the earth to rumble and shift, transforming a 10-foot-radius patch of earth, unworked stone, or sand into an area of difficult terrain centered on a square it can touch. This lasts for a number of minutes equal to the user’s level, after which the ground returns to normal.
Nice! I got sent back to this by one of my players, interested in a Glaistig, except as a elk antlered race. He wants to know the race points.
It's old but I'm a huge fan of this thread by VoodooMike for race building.