Goblin Squad Member
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For me, in particular, with the way I want to play, I'd *love* to see people able to post a 'job' to a board. Something like 'I need 50 brown leathers at the next town over, I'll pay 50s'.
Not just shouted in trade (which gets old), but paying to toss it onto a job board for people like me to load up and bring.
You have read the Goblin Works blog: Signed... In Blood ? I assume contracts will be predominant Economic activity and quests more towards your character, Escalation, Alignment and Progression.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Apparently I'm feeling all potificaty today :)
Not giving AI enemies LoS checks is less about resource drain than fun factor.
The common design wisdom is that it's actually very easy to cross the line where "more realistic" starts becoming "less fun." Why do guards in stealth games shrug and say, "I guess I was imagining things," and return to patrol when they see the dead body of their friend but don't find you in thirty seconds? Because a system where guards pick up on the same clues you would and hunt you down with a coordinated grid search instead of acting like they have Memento-type short term memory loss isn't ever as fun as it sounds like on the drawing board.
With a tendency to fill fields full of foes (alliteration!), standard MMOs have even more of a problem with this than single-player stealth games. If that whole herd of monsters could see you when you could see them, rather than letting you pull them one at a time at your leisure if you stay aware of patrols, you would just get killed over and over. MMOs have experimented heavily with trying to balance aggro ranges, sightlines, and individual creature difficulty to try to make this feel reasonable. They are somewhat limited by a paradigm where there has to be a sufficient enemy population density to allow dozens of players to wander in any direction and have fun fights. You'll notice that instanced areas tend to more often be set up in a way that doesn't seem like the monsters are blind, because they know they're only having to deal with X players at a time on a predictable route.
We've deviated sufficiently from the paradigm that we may have more freedom to try things, but there will probably be a fair degree of trickery in the background to try to make sure realism doesn't stop being fun. For example, if you wander into a hex overrun by goblins, they probably won't all start pouring after you once you've picked off one camp the same way a player settlement would if you picked off one of their satellite buildings. But, on a smaller scale, if we can get a group of goblins to seem less oblivious than typical while still being fun, then that's to the good.
Two things he mentioned were possibly enlisting an Orc captain, and his group I assume, and allying with a group of witches that moved into an area. Are you guys planning for things like this, or was he on the sauce that evening?
Escalation cycles may absolutely wind up being composed of intelligent NPCs that you have a high alliance rating with (and/or your settlement has a relationship with). We're working on giving you a variety of nuanced options in that case, including doing quests to actually help them for a reward and using social game systems to get them to move a couple hexes over and attack your enemies. Actually enlisting them directly for help feeds into our overall decisions on pets and other direct NPC followers, so it's too early to say for sure. But if you're, say, a character friendly with goblins and you're being chased by characters who are not their friends, you can absolutely lead the pursuers into a pack of goblins and expect them to attack your pursuers but not you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing that would be nice to see is player-created quests. For example:
Alpha Company has a fair number of lumber camps in the wilds to take advantage of some juicy nodes they found. A short time after planting the camps, they start having goblin problems. They don't have enough manpower to guard the camps AND hunt down/eradicate the nests, so they place a bounty on the Toadmuncher Goblin Tribe (the local pests). This quest is dispensed through a company NPC representative to those approved to work on behalf of the company (reputation/standing/etc limitation). As long as the quest is active and someone has it, if they kill one of these Toadmuncher Goblins the corpse drops an ear that can be turned in for a reward. Eliminating a nest likewise drops a token to be turned in for a reward.
If the goblin tribe is treated like a company, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to add something similar for player companies. Maybe the brigand 'Goldenhart' company has been making life miserable by attacking shipments on the road. Alpha company wants help taking care of them, so they place a bounty on the brigands, creating a quest available through the NPC representative. When someone with the quest kills one of the PC brigands, an ear (or some other token) is lootable on the corpse. The token may then be turned in for a reward.
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@Being, I would love if NPC mobs needed LOS to aggro, instead of just having a big circular aggro radius. I'm not sure we're there yet, but we can definitely see it from here :)
This, and monsters that would kill you if you traveled alone are what I miss the most about FFXI (I think that was the last time I played an MMO where everyone wasn't the Kratos from GoW equivalent).
FFXI had a wide variety of aggro mechanics. Most were simply LoS, but some types of mobs could aggro off sound or smell. You have white mage spells that could mask your odor, and with bats who detect with sonar, if you simply stood still, they wouldn't aggro you either. I think there was also a form of 'linking' where If you attacked a beastman, other beastmen in the area would come to its aid - kind of like a cry for help.
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Escalation cycles may absolutely wind up being composed of intelligent NPCs that you have a high alliance rating with (and/or your settlement has a relationship with). We're working on giving you a variety of nuanced options in that case, including doing quests to actually help them for a reward and using social game systems to get them to move a couple hexes over and attack your enemies. Actually enlisting them directly for help feeds into our overall decisions on pets and other direct NPC followers, so it's too early to say for sure. But if you're, say, a character friendly with goblins and you're being chased by characters who are not their friends, you can absolutely lead the pursuers into a pack of goblins and expect them to attack your pursuers but not you.
Ah that is righteous! Nobody else is going in this direction and I think it'll bring a whole different dimension to the gameplay. If players could work it out where mobs move to an enemy hex and take up residence, then when the enemies are deep in combat with the mobs, you sweep into hammer their flank! The are so many options when you bring factions into the picture that its almost like a whole different game, certainly an addition that other MMOs can't offer because they are too busy creating more grindey content! :D
Thanks! Made my day learning that you guys are planning to have factions and ways to interact with them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If so that would mean the spawning of those randomized dungeons might be connected to escalations.
Yes, when we have dungeons most of them will probably also hook into the local cycle in various ways.
By "dungeon" I understand any sort of area (dungeon, ruins, forest, etc), will we see dungeons become a permanent part of the environment once they have been discovered?
I hope so, just curious what you guys are thinking.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If so that would mean the spawning of those randomized dungeons might be connected to escalations.
Yes, when we have dungeons most of them will probably also hook into the local cycle in various ways.
By "dungeon" I understand any sort of area (dungeon, ruins, forest, etc), will we see dungeons become a permanent part of the environment once they have been discovered?
I hope so, just curious what you guys are thinking.
That is my understanding: what is generally called a 'dungeon' might be a forest glade, a cove in the mountains, a cave or cavern, a lost temple. It is an encounter area especially built and furnished for adventuring.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Being, I would love if NPC mobs needed LOS to aggro, instead of just having a big circular aggro radius. I'm not sure we're there yet, but we can definitely see it from here :)
Please yes! A thousand times yes!
Nothing annoys me more than spending a minute getting to the rear of a group of critters (in stealth), hitting the one at the very back with a backstab and having the whole group wheel 180 degrees on a dime and attack me. Just as annoying as trying to flank a critter when not in stealth and having its aggro trigger because of some random radius check.
Would love to see LOS aggro added. Sure, some critters might foil you with smell or tremorsense or the like, but your average Orc or Goblin wont.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Escalation cycles may absolutely wind up being composed of intelligent NPCs that you have a high alliance rating with (and/or your settlement has a relationship with). We're working on giving you a variety of nuanced options in that case, including doing quests to actually help them for a reward and using social game systems to get them to move a couple hexes over and attack your enemies. Actually enlisting them directly for help feeds into our overall decisions on pets and other direct NPC followers, so it's too early to say for sure. But if you're, say, a character friendly with goblins and you're being chased by characters who are not their friends, you can absolutely lead the pursuers into a pack of goblins and expect them to attack your pursuers but not you.
Now THIS ought to be fun and will give my lonely single baddie a reason to make friends in the woods.
(bolding mine)
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When they do introduce quests in PFO, I really hope they look a lot more like DDO quests than the standard 200 flavors of farming 10 of <insert mob name here>.I am going to be very serious here.
If the instanced quests are not fun like the DDO quests with puzzles and stories and thoughtful adventures, I am not playing PFO.
If the quests in PFO are set up like the quests in DDO I'll actually play the game.
DDO is currently my game of choice solely because of the quest mechanics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I very much enjoyed the multiplayer quests and escalations in GW2...it was one of the better elements of the entire game. Vistas were nice and motion pictury (otherwise useless) and I did like the leveling down to previous zones so no one could outright farm them. Always hated that rediculous mechanic (goes with leveling which I consider a relic of unimaginative game design).
I truly despised GW2 crafting, so I am jazzed to see how the resource collection, refining and crafting actually works itself out. It sounds like a tough challenge to make a true masterpiece (which is awesomely good to know)!
I remember in certain areas and zone in different games some critters had insanely large aggro radii....the abominables in the Dwarf starting zone in WoW (Dun Morogh) had rediculously high aggro and would chase you all over. since it was a noob zone the spawn rate was super high....it was alway a bad scene when you got trapped in the cave, but was great for grinding XPs early on if you had help.
I do not see many real chances to solo much of anything in the River Kingdoms, and that's okay as long as there are enough other folks there to tackle the hard jobs with....
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some of the ideas being kicked around in this thread hit on two of my favorite pass-times...creating events and social networking.
It is my hope that people will be creating the equivalent of quests all the time. Whether through contracts, where both parties need/want something, or simply to enhance other players' gaming experience, I believe we as a gaming community should be our own source of fun.
I know that I plan to interact with new players quite often in the game. Once I'm established well enough myself, I plan to hire this or that newer player for any number of tasks, thus providing them a more RPed purpose for their actions, as a means of earning some coin, and as one method of learning about their surroundings. I've done this often in past games. For more experienced players, the tasks often become more a blend of story-line and quest because the time needed to complete the quest tends to grow in length, but it still provides them with more immersion than simply, "Fetch that and I'll pay you 'X' amount of coin."
Several examples:
In Rift, where I ran a raw materials supply company, though I had the skills to harvest anything in the game, I would often spot new players in need of coin (for better gear, for that first mount, etc.). I would discover what harvesting skills they had and hire them to gather that resource. Often I didn't need what I had sent them out to gather, but I was rich enough to be able to pay for their services so as to provide them with both cash and a sense of purpose. In the process, they raised their skills and learned where the best harvesting spots were for their level (I would point them in the right direction).
In several MMOs, I would hire fighters-types to escort me through a dangerous area to get from point A to B (often I would use a low level alt so that the journey really was dangerous for me and the need for a guard was genuine). Again, I didn't really need to get from A to B, but it gave those who hired on as guards something new and hopefully exciting to do.
Both of these examples can be handled in PFO with the proposed contract program and will likely happen naturally, though I think many players, used to the solo-affect of other MMOs, may have to learn to need one another again. There are literally hundreds of quests players could make for one another that don't fall under the proposed contract system - quests that deal with gathering information, scouting out locales, delivering messages, pilgrimages, etc. Whether players put these quests in motion because they need whatever the quest recipient is gaining for them, or simply to add to the fun of other players, I think the possibilities are wide open, and as an event planner and story-line manager, I've been looking for this in a game for the last decade.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is my understanding: what is generally called a 'dungeon' might be a forest glade, a cove in the mountains, a cave or cavern, a lost temple. It is an encounter area especially built and furnished for adventuring.If so that would mean the spawning of those randomized dungeons might be connected to escalations.
Yes, when we have dungeons most of them will probably also hook into the local cycle in various ways.
By "dungeon" I understand any sort of area (dungeon, ruins, forest, etc), will we see dungeons become a permanent part of the environment once they have been discovered?
I hope so, just curious what you guys are thinking.
From Adventures in the River Kingdoms:
Ruins, lairs and caverns: These are the classic set-piece adventuring experiences of many tabletop games. Call them "dungeons" for the sake of discussion. You will find these areas using abilities; once located they'll spawn on the map and be findable by anyone who travels to the correct location. If they are cleared, or if no character interacts with them for a fixed amount of time, they'll be removed from the game world automatically.
[snip]
Obviously, if we let every PvE encounter area remain in the game forever, in a very short while the whole map would be covered with exhausted environs and the dead remains of their inhabitants.Most of the PvE content that you encounter will automatically be removed by the game after a certain period of time passes without any player interacting with it. In this way we can constantly present you with places to adventure that are fresh and ready for the PCs to venture forth and earn riches and glory. However, a very few of these areas may morph into something much more permanent. Occasionally, when players finish with a PvE area, instead of being quietly removed by the game system, that area will instead open up for habitation by characters. Maybe you'll find a bandit lair you can take over to start your own nefarious band. Maybe you'll find an old, ruined watchtower and restore its oversight of the approach to your lands. Maybe you'll find the lair of a fearsome beast that you can turn into a secret place for your magical researches, or the home of your assassins' guild, or merely a great storehouse that's easily defended.
In this way, each hex will become unique over time, gaining a story of its own that's formed from the actions of the players. People will know how certain features of the land were created, and those memories will invest the place with much more value to the world than mere random buildings would ever generate.
I believe it was in that blog thread that the devs indicated that the dungeons that remained persistent would be of the larger type that several groups could enter at once with several entrances/exits, while the ones that disappeared would be locked by the first person that found it, who could then allow access to others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was getting caught up on what had been said in this thread when I came across something that Being wrote that triggered a thought;
I guess that means no random animals wandering the land? Unless they are part of an escalation cycle it doesn't sound like there will be?
Lisa did say she liked that proposal to link escalation to the ecology... start with rabbits and other furry creatures and if they overpopulate it spawns wolves and goblins and voilà! escalatory activity.
That could be very interesting if a hex were to start with a balanced ecology. i.e. a bunch of rabbits and other herbivores plus a few wolfs and other carnivores. Then when the various PC's come exploring and encounter said carnivores they begin reacting the way they've been conditioned in so many other MMO's to react, they kill the carnivores for the XP. Of course now those carnivores are gone and the herbivore population is no longer being kept in check.
Initially the PC's might not see much difference other than a few more rabbits running around but a little more time and that farm in the next hex over suddenly has a problem with their crops. There are a lot of rabbits needing more food and here is this great crop of their favorite food gathered in one place. ***rabbit thought: YUM*** Of course the PC farmer is not going to be too fond of this when he suddenly finds that his crop has been reduced to nothing.
A very interesting prospect for the commoner PC's. Are you going to build walls all the way around trying to keep the rabbits out? Try to bring back carnivores to the area? Hire PC's to kill rabbits? And how many PC's are going to want to just kill rabbits? Unless you can find a place to sell their fur?
Just something that occurred to me when I read that comment. :)
directed at the op. I'm used to this kind of thing having played mmorpg's before and wouldn't have anything against it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why do guards in stealth games shrug and say, "I guess I was imagining things," and return to patrol when they see the dead body of their friend but don't find you in thirty seconds? Because a system where guards pick up on the same clues you would and hunt you down with a coordinated grid search instead of acting like they have Memento-type short term memory loss isn't ever as fun as it sounds like on the drawing board.