Goblin Squad Member
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This little exchange of ours started off with you rejecting this idea: "need to get some kind of ID key from a player to friend them".
That is how you see it. I understand that is how you saw it. I was talking about social floaty names. You thought I was talking about flags. I have the opinion that we should not see floaty names unless we know someone or at least are acquainted with them. You showed up and asked how are you going to know one from another. Well, obviously you would interact with them. You didn't mention that you were thinking flags while I had just been talking about floaty names.
Own your part in the responsibility Blaeringr. There were two of us there and no, sorry you also left your "perfect' hat at the house.
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Given that I did not specify how that ID is to be exchanged, nor did I specify what form it take, all that's left is for me to interpret that you reject the idea of unique ID other than the name itself.
You also didn't specify what ID is to be exchanged. You did not specify flag. I was talking about some townie you meet on the street. You have no idea what his name is because floaty names don't show unless there is a reason for you to know his name. And you want to know how you are going to distinguish him from someone else with that same name. Looked to me like you just wanted to harvest their contact info automagically so you wouldn't have to interact. So I said, to paraphrase 'Well, why not ask them?'. Logical. But then you told me I could give you the answer or explain myself when in my part of the conversation you were the one presuming and making little sense, and I frankly started getting a bit ticked off at you.
I'm getting the notion now that you are advocating unique ID in some form or another, but thought you were making some kind of point to me about how said IDs are exchanged.
In the case of player names absent from floating over the heads of everyone you don't have any reason to know, of course. You asked. You didn't specify flags and I was talking about floaty names. But of course I should have been wearing my mind reading hat, right?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you identify people by their accounts?
Makes espionage rather difficult, unless you use multiple accounts, or unless players aren't able to actually see the account connection, but need to get some kind of ID key from a player to friend them.
Oh! You mean how to distinguish characters with attack flags? That makes a world of difference. Sure am glad I brought along my mind reading hat!
Yes, instead of their name even, I would have the system provide the playerID to report them with.
All better now?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you identify people by their accounts?
Makes espionage rather difficult, unless you use multiple accounts, or unless players aren't able to actually see the account connection, but need to get some kind of ID key from a player to friend them.
Oh! You mean how to distinguish characters with attack flags? That makes a world of difference. Sure am glad I brought along my mind reading hat!
Yes, instead of their name even, I would have the system provide the playerID to report them with.
All better now?
No. I don't mean how to distinguish between players with attack flags. Yet again something I never said.
You don't need an attack flag to want to send someone mail, or invite them to your group, or to specify who can collect on a contract. Or any flag of any kind. You need some form of ID. That's all I ever said, and even gave those examples of why, and you still didn't follow because you never did take my advice to think about it. And now you're backpedaling like a clown on a unicycle.
And yes, I did specify what ID was to be exchanged, but I did not specify what form it take. The ID itself is the same ID the server uses to distinguish them. What meta form that takes in game was something I left out. I purposely left it open ended because it's trivial to me. But that didn't stop you from filling in the blanks.
In a game where names have to be unique, those names serve as the player side form of that unique server ID. What I've been discussing all along is that. If names are no longer unique, you have to have a different way of managing those IDs. I don't give a goblin's ass about how limp of firm your handshake has to be to be able to exchange said information, but it must be obtainable. That's all I've been saying, and you've been arguing from the start.
When you have a conversation with me, operate on the assumption that I will read what you say and write what I mean. I'm not going to assume you meant something else based on what you were thinking about at the time but didn't write down, and I'm not your husband so stop expecting me to read your mind. When you write "attack flag", I read a term that GW has used to categorize behavior, not a term that means custom server based ID for each character. That should have gone without saying though.
You can't have an on/off toggle for forced anonymity. All you can have is an auto-broadcast of your own.
That's what I meant, the on/off worked for your screen allowing you to use the feature or not rather then having to use it. Sorry I didn't explain what I intended very well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You can't have an on/off toggle for forced anonymity. All you can have is an auto-broadcast of your own.That's what I meant, the on/off worked for your screen allowing you to use the feature or not rather then having to use it. Sorry I didn't explain what I intended very well.
You have to use the feature either way, because it will be a factor in your interaction with anyone else in the game who isn't auto-broadcasting. Just because you auto-introduce yourself to everyone else doesn't mean you don't have to deal with the headaches involved in the system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If names are no longer unique, you have to have a different way of managing those IDs.
There has to be a unique ID, but it doesn't have to be visible to the player.
In my example earlier, where you have 17 "unknown character" entries in your logs, it's quite possible that 4 of those 17 are actually the same character. I think it's better if the player doesn't automatically know that.
The only real problem would be "cold" contacts, where you haven't actually encountered each other in-game, so there are no log entries to use as reference pointers. In this case, I can easily envision a system where Adam can generate a token that will uniquely identify Adam in-game. I can also envision a system where Adam and Bob have to coordinate to produce a token that can uniquely identify Adam, but only to Bob, and/or only for a limited period of time. These tokens would be shared via email, or possibly some "post-PC" system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some opinions YMMV (your mind may vomit):
1) Under no circumstances should any player be allowed access to any real life identification of another player without that player specifically offering it. There are too many predictors in real life to allow that. No exceptions.
2) The game must have unique identifiers for the game database because it is essential for the game to uniquely identify character to work properly. Other characters don't have that need to play in the game. Players should not have access to internal game IDs for many of the same reasons as 1) above.
3) No one goes about shouting out their name every 5 seconds unless they are running for office. It should be the default that names are not displayed. Just because you see someone there is no guarantee that you will automatically recognize them as someone you know, especially with their cloths on.
4) Any character in a non magical disguise should be detectable by a high enough perception skill check. The issue is when will you as a character know when you should make a check to penetrate a disguise. The more someone tries to fool you (like a false name over their head) there should be a "warning bell" of some sort to make you suspicious about what you see.
5) People whom you know and indicate your desire to remember by having them in your contact list should be identifiable by your character (see the name you know them by over their head) when you are within a reasonable distance to see enough detail to make the recognition.
6) "If I don't want to introduce myself, take a hike." That RP option should not be violated by automatic identification.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You don't need an attack flag to want to send someone mail, or invite them to your group, or to specify who can collect on a contract. Or any flag of any kind. You need some form of ID. That's all I ever said, and even gave those examples of why, and you still didn't follow because you never did take my advice to think about it. And now you're backpedaling like a clown on a unicycle.
You have a reading comprehension problem, Blaeringr.
If you need to send someone you don't know information in game, talk to them in game and get it from them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This little exchange of ours started off with you rejecting this idea: "need to get some kind of ID key from a player to friend them".That is how you see it. I understand that is how you saw it. I was talking about social floaty names. You thought I was talking about flags. I have the opinion that we should not see floaty names unless we know someone or at least are acquainted with them. You showed up and asked how are you going to know one from another. Well, obviously you would interact with them. You didn't mention that you were thinking flags while I had just been talking about floaty names.
I know you've been talking mainly about floaty names from the beginning. That's the problem.
So you have a friend with a specific "floaty name". I make a character with the exact same floaty name. This could be done deliberately, or by sheer coincidence - it doesn't matter for this example. We have some sort of interaction that leads to my floaty name now also being visible to you. There's absolutely no reason we can't become acquainted in identical manner to how you became acquainted with the first person you know by the same name. So my character, and some other character you know both have the same name, and carry all the same flags. If you want to send a private message to one of us, or specify one of us in a contract, you need another form of ID.
Now I'm glad that by this point in the conversation it's clear that you finally agree with me, but re-read the start of the conversation. That may have been what you meant, but it's not what you said. Given that, and given that you're not my wife or girlfriend, it should be clear by now how the tragic and horrible mistake of me not being able to read your mind occurred.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If names are no longer unique, you have to have a different way of managing those IDs.There has to be a unique ID, but it doesn't have to be visible to the player.
Has anybody said it has to be visible to the player?
Nihimon, I feel it crucial to tell you that the unique player ID should not be represented as a soaring blue flamingo that blocks out your entire screen. Ok? I just thought that needed to be said.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You don't need an attack flag to want to send someone mail, or invite them to your group, or to specify who can collect on a contract. Or any flag of any kind. You need some form of ID. That's all I ever said, and even gave those examples of why, and you still didn't follow because you never did take my advice to think about it. And now you're backpedaling like a clown on a unicycle.You have a reading comprehension problem, Blaeringr.
If you need to send someone you don't know information in game, talk to them in game and get it from them.
Who's talking about people you don't know? I have given explicit examples involving multiple people that you know that both have the same name. And you know them both. And they have the same name. Both of them. And all the same flags.
You're the one with a reading comprehension problem.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I know you've been talking mainly about floaty names from the beginning. That's the problem.
So you have a friend with a specific "floaty name". I make a character with the exact same floaty name. This could be done deliberately, or by sheer coincidence - it doesn't matter for this example. We have some sort of interaction that leads to my floaty name now also being visible to you. There's absolutely no reason we can't become acquainted in identical manner to how you became acquainted with the first person you know by the same name. So my character, and some other character you know both have the same name, and carry all the same flags. If you want to send a private message to one of us, or specify one of us in a contract, you need another form of ID.
Now I'm glad that by this point in the conversation it's clear that you finally agree with me, but re-read the start of the conversation. That may have been what you meant, but it's not what you said. Given that, and given that you're not my wife or girlfriend, it should be clear by now how the tragic and horrible mistake of me not being able to read your mind occurred.
So why didn't you write what you meant in the first place, Blaeringer?
You are backpedaling like a clown on a unicycle.
Commonly we use some form of unique identifier. Why was that a question? First Name, Middle Name, surname, exactly as suggested in my first post in this thread. No duplicates. In my proposal you would have to interact with them to get their name.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You don't need an attack flag to want to send someone mail, or invite them to your group, or to specify who can collect on a contract. Or any flag of any kind. You need some form of ID. That's all I ever said, and even gave those examples of why, and you still didn't follow because you never did take my advice to think about it. And now you're backpedaling like a clown on a unicycle.You have a reading comprehension problem, Blaeringr.
If you need to send someone you don't know information in game, talk to them in game and get it from them.
Who's talking about people you don't know? I have given explicit examples involving multiple people that you know that both have the same name. And you know them both. And they have the same name. Both of them. And all the same flags.
You're the one with a reading comprehension problem.
Your faulty presumption is that there would be duplicates allowed. That is not my position, so why would you be arguing your point with me?
Not only do you have a reading comprehension disability, you fail to address your complaints appropriately.
You really should see that haberdasher.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Like this:
need to get some kind of ID key from a player to friend them
Does "some kind" mean a "specific" kind? No, it was intentionally left open ended.
I also said this: "So if there are two characters with the same name, and you know them both, how will that work?" and it's also what I meant. It's the same point I just made now. No backpedaling. Same point.
I said what I meant, but your awful reading comprehension lead to this end.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I also said this: "So if there are two characters with the same name, and you know them both, how will that work?" ...
Duplicate names were not my position, Blaeringer. Where did you get this impression that I would have information about that anyway? I was talking about no floaty names. I was recommending names be kept unique, not duplicable, by using first. middle and surname. The part of your question I could respond to was how would you get her name. I said talk to her.
TL:DR
You were wrong.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your faulty presumption is that there would be duplicates allowed. That is not my position, so why would you be arguing your point with me?The presumption is based off of your reply:
It would help to allow middle names, surnames, and special characters.
You suggest more variety to avoid repetition. You made that suggestion in response to someone suggesting restriction. Lengthier names for more variety won't stop someone from intentionally copying a name. If there are no restrictions on name duplications, merely increase variety, we still need unique tags on some level.
I also got it from the fact you kept arguing with my stance that you need more than a name, which is what I've been saying from the start. It's what I said, it's what I meant.
I used examples of phone numbers and addresses and social security numbers, yet you still continued to argue. Was it really now clear to you then that I wasn't just asking how you get their name, but information beyond?
Why was my stance so unclear to you?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Duplicate names were not my position, Blaeringer. Where did you get this impression that I would have information about that anyway? I was talking about no floaty names. I was recommending names be kept unique, not duplicable, by using first. middle and surname. The part of your question I could respond to was how would you get her name. I said talk to her....
I also said this: "So if there are two characters with the same name, and you know them both, how will that work?" ...
I never asked how you get her name. Never. I asked what else you have in addition to the name to make other game mechanics work.
TL:DR
Glad we can agree on your poor reading comprehension as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your faulty presumption is that there would be duplicates allowed. That is not my position, so why would you be arguing your point with me?The presumption is based off of your reply:It would help to allow middle names, surnames, and special characters.You suggest more variety to avoid repetition. You made that suggestion in response to someone suggesting restriction. Lengthier names for more variety won't stop someone from intentionally copying a name. If there are no restrictions on name duplications, merely increase variety, we still need unique tags on some level.
Why was my stance so unclear to you?
I suggested that unique naming would be improved by allowing more variety. There was nothing in that whatsoever to suggest I did not want unique names. I have never supported duplicitous naming.
Your stance was unclear because you based your queries on a faulty presupposition. You presumed I meant something I did not. You did not clarify what the hell you meant, or what you were referring to. For my part, my fault was not ensuring we fully understood what each of us meant. Fault is on both sides. Now kiss me and make up.
>80
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Goblin Squad Member
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There was nothing in that whatsoever to suggest I did not want unique names.There was indeed in the way you argued with my examples of how in real life we need more information than just real names. I clarified over and over what I was getting at, but what clarification is enough when the recipient is in this state of mind:
TL:DR
I get now that's what you meant.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks. But I believe all those other instances were about hiding player name bubbles where we don't know them.
The only reason I threw in that line about an attacker is the common objection about how do we report someone attacking us if we cannot see their name. I felt that someone attacking you should automatically also introduce to you their identity (and not provide your to him). I felt that providing the PlayerID would avoid being confronted with 'funny' PK names and also absolutely identify the attacker in the case of the aggregious PK.
Lol, you guys need to come up with names and point values for your verbal battle. Like "Sentence Bash" -12 points, "Word Slice" -8 points, "Vowel Bandage" +10 points etc... That way you can start out with a set number of points and whoever is brought to 0 loses. At least then you, and the rest of us, would know when someone has won. :p
Sorry, couldn't resist throwing that out there. I'll leave now before I cut my feet up too badly <g>
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I never asked how you get her name.
You were actually asking how you could send a tell to someone where two characters had duplicate names. What you actually said was:
So if there are two characters with the same name, and you know them both, how will that work?
How will what work? Them having the same name? Sending them an email? Figuring out which is which? How does it work in real life? To which you responded 'by social security number' I think it was. Yeah, thats a winning way to get a date with either Jane or Jane, I know not which. Ask her social. heh.
glwtGlad we can agree on your poor reading comprehension as well.
Ah, I am usually the one on that end, but frankly an author has an obligation to be clear. I'm not one to request dumbing the language down: many things are much too complicated to say simply. But there is merit in being specific. Such as the word 'that' in your sentence above.
Still I do admit Einstein stumped me. Newton did too. I could follow along pretty good but then I sorta looked around and said "wait: wut?"
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Goblin Squad Member
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Has anybody said it has to be visible to the player?If names are no longer unique, you have to have a different way of managing those IDs.There has to be a unique ID, but it doesn't have to be visible to the player.
Has anybody said that someone said it has to be visible to the player?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lol, you guys need to come up with names and point values for your verbal battle. Like "Sentence Bash" -12 points, "Word Slice" -8 points, "Vowel Bandage" +10 points etc... That way you can start out with a set number of points and whoever is brought to 0 loses. At least then you, and the rest of us, would know when someone has won. :p
Sorry, couldn't resist throwing that out there. I'll leave now before I cut my feet up too badly <g>
Nah. He cannot give up. He knows by now he can only win if i default, so he intends to wear it out. Standard practice. That and keep repeating himself even where he is wrong in hope that repetition makes him right.
I have to wonder though how he chose to cling to the 'reading comprehension' jibe. Indefensible. I can only guess that was a barb that stung. Ah well: nobody could believe he has any problems there, really. But that one scored I guess.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I never asked how you get her name.You were actually asking how you could send a tell to someone where two characters had duplicate names. What you actually said was:
So if there are two characters with the same name, and you know them both, how will that work?How will what work? Them having the same name? Sending them an email? Figuring out which is which? How does it work in real life? To which you responded 'by social security number' I think it was. Yeah, thats a winning way to get a date with either Jane or Jane, I know not which. Ask her social. heh.
You're advocating reading comprehension, but misquoting me...
I said address to send mail, phone number to phone, government uses soc sec.
I was making the point that we need an in game analogy.
But you missed all that, and you've already answered why you missed all that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's another version that fits as well.
Nah. I cannot give up. I know by now I can only win if he defaults, so I intends to wear it out. Standard practice. That and keep repeating myself even where I am wrong in hope that repetition makes me right.Lol, you guys need to come up with names and point values for your verbal battle. Like "Sentence Bash" -12 points, "Word Slice" -8 points, "Vowel Bandage" +10 points etc... That way you can start out with a set number of points and whoever is brought to 0 loses. At least then you, and the rest of us, would know when someone has won. :p
Sorry, couldn't resist throwing that out there. I'll leave now before I cut my feet up too badly <g>
I have to wonder though how he chose to cling to the 'reading comprehension' jibe. Indefensible. I can only guess that was a barb that stung. Ah well: nobody could believe he has any problems there, really. But that one scored I guess.
It's more the hypocrisy of it that stood out. Misquoting me, admitting to not reading before responding, but then attacking my comprehension. Pure hypocrisy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Every time you say "he" in that post, it would be 100% accurate to insert your name as wellSnork! Not really. Have we fallen back on the 'I'm rubber, your glue' defense?
You admitted yourself you weren't even reading what I wrote. There's nothing at all unfair in my suggesting you are all about stubbornness at this point.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've certainly been just as difficult, but in the spirit of moving on, and to salvage this thread, I suggest some cleaning up. Who do I contact to try to get said cleaning up of posts in the thread taken care of? I'm willing to take whatever discipline the moderators here deem fair. I don't mind a little spanking now and then ;b
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I think may be the biggest benefit of hiding the names of player characters unless we are introduced might be that it gives an incentive to at least make a concession to role playing. If we can decide whether or not to share our name with someone, and see theirs, is that we could as a community require a certain degree af RP familiarity before permitting it. If they just spam for introductions that would be a turn off. If they actually introduce themselves 'in-character' that would open a door for me.
It would present some obstacles, sure. But if everyone entering the game had to at least make an effort to RP in order to learn the names of people who are willing to allow in-game acquaintance it should advance the cause of meaningful interaction. If someone has to meet someone else in order to invite or be invited to group then the first step is already achieved.
I wonder though what would happen if we introduce ourselves to a stranger and they accept, but turn out to be someone we don't really want to be associated with? Should we have the ability to set a range of reputation for people we permit such familiarity?
Or what if we were autolimited to names within a certain range of our own reputation?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't mind a little spanking now and then ;b
Down the Memory Hole with that comment!
Should we have the ability to set a range of reputation for people we permit such familiarity?
The fact that the vile and villainous Blaeringr knows who Being is shouldn't have any negative impact on Being.
I'm a huge fan of non-unique names, and of only knowing someone by the nickname you give them (or the name they gave you when you met them), and of the potential to think you know two completely distinct characters in-game who are in fact the exact same character.
Have the Devs said how they feel about an /anonymous option in PFO?
Also, what would you all think about having a tiny symbol that players could toggle on/off that shows anyone looking that a character is RP'ing? I'm thinking of a symbol like the smiling/frowning harlequin masks either before a characters name, or maybe slightly above it. That way I would know that the player I'm looking at is RP'ing, which would affect my dealings with them, like how I would greet them etc.. ?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another opinion YMMV:
Reputation: I think that it is possible that a character would have a chance to recognize another character without having an introduction if the other character's reputation value was high enough. Regardless of reputation value, recognition should not be automatic but a knowledge(local) skill check. (There are some mornings when I can't even recognize my feet.) In this case one character could know another without the reverse being true.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another opinion YMMV:
Reputation: I think that it is possible that a character would have a chance to recognize another character without having an introduction if the other character's reputation value was high enough. Regardless of reputation value, recognition should not be automatic but a knowledge(local) skill check. (There are some mornings when I can't even recognize my feet.) In this case one character could know another without the reverse being true.
I think you're right, Harad. A Notorious or Famous person should probably be recognized. What if the range of people who will recognize you increases with your positive or negative reputation?
If you are merely hovering around zero you wouldn't be able to recognize people on sight.
Hmm... how could this work out?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, what would you all think about having a tiny symbol that players could toggle on/off that shows anyone looking that a character is RP'ing? I'm thinking of a symbol like the smiling/frowning harlequin masks either before a characters name, or maybe slightly above it.
This is representative of an entire class of problems that can only be solved if the player is able to easily convey their intent to the system, and the system can only allow them to accomplish goals which have been appropriately declared as intentions. I hope that someday a complex system can be built up around this idea, and coupled with the idea of representing knowledge as in-game objects which are required in order to act upon them, to create a really rich environment where Divination spells like Detect Lie can actually be meaningful.
Until that day, I expect we'll have very rudimentary systems that allow players to convey a few priority intentions to other players, but the system won't understand them, and won't alter anything significant because of them.
Reputation: I think that it is possible that a character would have a chance to recognize another character without having an introduction if the other character's reputation value was high enough.
I like this idea. It should take into account, though, that often a person's name is more famous than their appearance, especially in an age without mass media. When I still lived in Austin, I was standing behind Michael Dell in a gas station. He was buying one of those 20 oz cans of beer as a single. The clerk obviously didn't recognize him and asked him if he was a car salesman, because he "bought beer like a car salesman". Michael suggested he read the book "The Billionaire Next Door". (I don't think he meant this one.)