Goblin Squad Member
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There seems to be an emphasis on flags and statuses revolving around managing how, when and with what consequences players can kill each other without much thought to enabling less extreme alternatives. For example, if you don't want to part with your goods when faced with a bandit's demands he is then allowed to kill you and this is somehow more permissible than other ways of killing you...huh?
Even if you aren't powerful enough to overwhelm the bandit and he still kills you, would he not risk being injured in the fight? Is there a mechanic for this? Is the offer window in the form of a barter? i.e. the bandit offers to let you go in exchange for your goods, you counter offer half your goods or is it all or nothing? What's to stop a bandit from demanding more than you have, in which case you'd have to refuse by default and they would still gain the benefit of the bandit flag allowing them to kill you.
Does a paladin or enforcer have the option of catching and incarcerating you (e.g. for a period during which perhaps you don't gain xp) as opposed to simply gaining special incentives to kill you? This seems a bit simplistic the idea of follow the rules or we'll provide incentives for other people to kill you. I mean there are crimes and there are petty crimes. The mark of an evil settlement might be not that they allow crimes to go unpunished but rather that punishments do not fit the crime (death for stealing to eat). By the same token a good settlement should not condone capital punishment under most circumstances so incentives to attack and kill petty criminals doesn't really make all that much sense IMO. Thoughts?
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Even if you aren't powerful enough to overwhelm the bandit and he still kills you, would he not risk being injured in the fight? Is there a mechanic for this? Is the offer window in the form of a barter? i.e. the bandit offers to let you go in exchange for your goods, you counter offer half your goods or is it all or nothing? What's to stop a bandit from demanding more than you have, in which case you'd have to refuse by default and they would still gain the benefit of the bandit flag allowing them to kill you...
My current thought is that when the bandits confront you with a stand and deliver (SAD) event they simply say 'Your money or your life!"
The merchant then responds with an offer the bandits can accept or deny. Possibly there could be an option for the merchant to increase his offer if the bandits choose to deny. Maybe this haggling would affect the reputation effects of the completed transaction, whichever way it goes. Getting a 'good deal' might even increase the merchant's reputation even more than winning the engagement if it failed."Victor is so good he got the bandits to pay HIM to let it go!" the story might go.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I'm hoping for is that the SAD systems will use a percentage based demand / offer. This way the merhcant could not be forced to decline the demand, because the demand was more than 100% of what he or she had.
Eventually I honestly believe that a certain percontage level will become the "norm". Once a norm is established, then both bandits and merchants can begin to chart out what their business ventures will produce on a fairly predictable manner.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How about a subdual mechanic using the "Pugilism" skill, or your shield bash. If you choose subdual you would knock the unconscious and still be able to loot him/her without killing them (probably coinpurse only). Otherwise, in a boxing match or other brawl punching and kicking skills could be used in a non-lethal manner.
As far as earning bounties on wanted criminals, why not allow capture versus always killing them. Would it be embarassing for a known criminal to be haled through town in a cage? Can't think of a more fitting punishment for some of these jokers. Although stalling their gameplay by carting them around (as opposed to them being able to corpse run to their husk) might be a dealbreaker.
How about a subdual mechanic using the "Pugilism" skill, or your shield bash. If you choose subdual you would knock the unconscious and still be able to loot him/her without killing them (probably coinpurse only). Otherwise, in a boxing match or other brawl punching and kicking skills could be used in a non-lethal manner.
As far as earning bounties on wanted criminals, why not allow capture versus always killing them. Would it be embarassing for a known criminal to be haled through town in a cage? Can't think of a more fitting punishment for some of these jokers. Although stalling their gameplay by carting them around (as opposed to them being able to corpse run to their husk) might be a dealbreaker.
This has been discussed in a few threads. The general consensus seems to be that subduing fights would require a whole new combat coding set. And most conversations mentioning capture lead to some form of incarceration which most people say would make people quit the game rather then endure. I would certainly favor capturing a criminal, as an alternative to just killing them, leading them through town to the authorities where they are required to pay a fine of some type. But I'm unsure how many people would go for that, nor how the Devs feel about it.
IMO it would be kinda cool to have a bounty contract on someone and to subdue them, bring them before the authorities which would add the line "criminals brought to justice - XX" and maybe even list their names. This line could go on your characters reputation sheet and should add to your fame, or reputation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Of course, nothing stops role-players from creating their own "rules" aside from game mechanics. In many UO guilds, we had guidelines for capturing one another, though it first included killing the character. Once they were returned to the land of the living (we said they were simply subdued), they returned to their corpse, and having been defeated, gave themselves up for capture.
I had several characters, good and not so good aligned, led off to temporary imprisonment due to this agreement. Note, this was temporary, for being role-players in the same RP community, we made certain not to abuse the trust of our fellow players by leaving their favorite characters languishing in prisons forever.
Of course, life is always easier if the game mechanics provide what we think best, but if not, role-players will always find a way to do so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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what game mechanics cannot ensure to our satisfaction, role-players can always improve by our creativity and mutually beneficial agreement.
In EVE Online, pirates like myself and others, used to take our target to within one or two more hits before "death" and then we would stop and issue the ransom demand.
This worked because we had several mechanical tools at our disposal. The target ship, could not warp away, it could not travel away fast and sometimes it could not even shoot back. Our acceptance of a ransom rather than the kill was really generous on our parts.
If PFO had a similar "subduing" mechanic, then killing would be an option. Not killing the now helpless should increase reputation for the winner. Killing the helpless, after a SAD demand as been accepted, should incur the "Heinous Flag" not just the Murder Flag.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Subduing or capture was one of the benefits I was hoping for through a disarm combat maneuver, but it does not look like the devs will have that any time soon, if ever.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know the concern with a disarm skill is that if people can disarm you and your weapon falls on the ground where anyone can grab it, then disarm becomes the new stealing skill. GW already seems pretty steadfast on not allowing players the ability to steal from other players. If disarm tosses your weapon in your pack, like it does in some games, then the time it takes for you to reequip it simulates the time you would be scrambling to pick it up off the ground. Of course, equip weapon hotkeys can make that take only a second to accomplish, but in PvP , that second might matter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually the threading system is designed to allow players to steal from players. GW could have easily just had no player looting, like so many of the theme park MMOs.
What they are preventing is the theft of low quality, noob gear in order to deinsentivize the farming of noob characters. This it is another anti griefing system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suggested this one before when player thievery was being bantered about. If you're already allowing one player to take the property of another, why not allow for player thieves? You could make only the nonthreaded items stealable - and only those of a small enough nature (you don't lift someone's two-handed without him noticing the weight loss) to steal without notice (a potion, a wet stone, a gem, etc.). The chance of being spotted by the owner or others nearby could make it a very tricky business, and if spotted, the thief would be flagged as a criminal and anyone in the vicinity could attack him without harm to their own reputation. In fact, helping to bash the thief could boost their reputation for being a brave and helpful citizens.
When I brought this up before, someone posted that looting a corpse meant the killed character had a chance to fight back, rather than having no chance if they failed to detect the theft. However, I think more people, especially with the criminal flag in play to gain the assistance of others, would have a better chance of coming out on top. The poor noob that gets rolled by the skilled PK has no chance, but may lose little. The same noob who detects the pickpocket will lose no more and likely have a better chance of seeing the criminal punished.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This has been discussed in a few threads. The general consensus seems to be that subduing fights would require a whole new combat coding set.
If not now, when? A brand new game system would seem to be the best opportunity for such new development and it's early days yet. Some good ideas here.
Cheers!
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Goblin Squad Member
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what game mechanics cannot ensure to our satisfaction, role-players can always improve by our creativity and mutually beneficial agreement.In EVE Online, pirates like myself and others, used to take our target to within one or two more hits before "death" and then we would stop and issue the ransom demand.
This worked because we had several mechanical tools at our disposal. The target ship, could not warp away, it could not travel away fast and sometimes it could not even shoot back. Our acceptance of a ransom rather than the kill was really generous on our parts.
If PFO had a similar "subduing" mechanic, then killing would be an option. Not killing the now helpless should increase reputation for the winner. Killing the helpless, after a SAD demand as been accepted, should incur the "Heinous Flag" not just the Murder Flag.
I would like to see something like this implemented, especially the reputation part. Modern day Robin Hood for the win, still a criminal but a great reputation :)
Once we know a little more about how goods can be transported, i think the SAD will be better explained. I like to think a rogue could set temporary pitfall traps for wagons or druids/wizards/sorcerers using spells like soften earth or fire wall to make things interesting.
Would be even more interesting to use opposed bluff/sense motive checks in the negotiations, for example 'we surrender, take the goods' as soon as they start to unload the wagons, launch a surprise attack.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This has been discussed in a few threads. The general consensus seems to be that subduing fights would require a whole new combat coding set.
If not now, when? A brand new game system would seem to be the best opportunity for such new development and it's early days yet. Some good ideas here.
Cheers!
I'd love to get in a fistfight or wrestling match versus always having to kill someone. You could arrest people, put them in stocks (not for long), put them in jail (for a bit longer but not long, with a chance to escape), cart them around in a childcatcher wagon (like in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang), or otherwise embarass them.
Once they are released or escape, they'd have all their goodies.....no loss of loot but a good embarassment.