Whimsy Subdomain

[TechLee]

This feels like a silly question, but can PFS clerics take the Whimsy subdomain if their god has Chaos as a normal domain? I don't remember seeing any other new subdomains since the APG (I could be wrong), but the ones in the Aasimar book are the first ones I've seen that don't have a god associated with them.

I looked through a lot of posts and did searching on here and couldn't find an official answer, unfortunately. Lots of speculation and guessing, but no final ruling. :(

[Deussu]

I thought it worked like that, but deities have their own subdomain lists also. If a deity grants you a certain domain, it doesn't necessarily give you access to both subdomains.

If you ask me, the method is stupid. Whenever a new subdomain comes out, one has to update all deities' information who get the subdomain. So much work. And indeed this Whimsy subdomain doesn't have any takers. Odd.

[TechLee]

Yeah, it seems like a perfect match for a Varisian Aasimar cleric of Desna. :D

[Cheapy]

Ask James Jacob about it.

[TechLee]

Well, got my response. :D

James Jacobs wrote:

TechLee wrote:

Dear James Jacobs,

Are there any gods that can let their clerics use the Whimsy subdomain from Blood of Angels, or is it only for non-deity divine casters?

Thanks! :D

Some of the Empyreal Lords probably grant that subdomain, as do some of the Eldest. As for core deities... not sure. Calistria, Cayden Caylean, Desna, and Shelyn all seem like they might.

But that doesn't mean that's legal for PFS. Any ideas on PFS legality? Mike?

[xellos]

This is exactly the reason I asked this question in the rules forum yesterday. ^_^ I was reading through Blood of Angels, saw the subdomain, and thought it might be fun for a cleric of Desna. Then I saw it wasn't appearing as legal in Hero Lab for PFS characters, and realized that it doesn't seem to be associated with any deities yet.

[TechLee]

Heh. I saw that also, but I wasn't sure how any of the answers there would apply to PFS, so I figured I'd start something in here.

[xellos]

Also noticed that the subdomains are legal according to additional resources, so definitely could use clarification. ^_^

[Sarta]

However, since the subdomain is legal, it means you can make a Separatist cleric with the Whimsy domain.

[Dennis Baker]

So clerics of Urgathoa can totally take the Whimsy domain which is all sorts of awesome.

[LibraryRPGamer]

Sorry I am late to the party!

I am having the same issue with my PFS character right now - a lazy revolutionist who is a Cleric of Cayden Cailean. I asked JJ about it and he said, "It's up to your GM".

There is also the rule which says: "Subdomains are treated as equivalent to their associated domain for any effect or prerequisite based on domains."

1 - What does this mean for a Separatist Cleric who want's Whimsy but worships a god with the Chaos domain?

and

2 - Does "It's up to your GM" have legal ground in PFS since everything is governed by RAW?

[Grolick]

LibraryRPGamer wrote:

Sorry I am late to the party!

I am having the same issue with my PFS character right now - a lazy revolutionist who is a Cleric of Cayden Cailean. I asked JJ about it and he said, "It's up to your GM".

There is also the rule which says: "Subdomains are treated as equivalent to their associated domain for any effect or prerequisite based on domains."

1 - What does this mean for a Separatist Cleric who want's Whimsy but worships a god with the Chaos domain?

and

2 - Does "It's up to your GM" have legal ground in PFS since everything is governed by RAW?

For 2, no, it does not. One of the ideas behind PFS is to avoid having GMs making different rulings about what is legal was isn't. It should be a consistent experience from game to game, region to region (please note the use of "should."). I believe someone above said Additional Resources allows it, so it's good for a PFS character. The additional resources section is the reference for such things.

[CFet]

Has this been clarified somewhere? Can a cleric in PFS legally take Whimsy as a subdomain? I have a character concept I would just love to use whimsy for.

[Sarta]

Dennis Baker wrote:

So clerics of Urgathoa can totally take the Whimsy domain which is all sorts of awesome.

Actually, this doesn't work. Urgathoa is Neutral Evil. Whimsy is a sub-domain of Chaos and the Separatist Cleric archetype specifically states, "This second domain cannot be an alignment domain that doesn't match the cleric's or her deity's alignment."

[Sarta]

CFet wrote:

Has this been clarified somewhere? Can a cleric in PFS legally take Whimsy as a subdomain? I have a character concept I would just love to use whimsy for.

As per the Additional Resources regarding Blood of Angels "All subdomains on page 27 are legal". Separatist Cleric is not on the list of illegal archetypes in Ultimate Magic.

These two things are pretty clear. If the domain is a legal one, you can choose it. Just make certain the deity your character follows is Chaotic. Whimsy is an alignment subdomain, so can only be selected for a Chaotic deity.

[Shivok]

Will,

Do you think that it even needs to be a separatist archetype?

I was thinking if its PFS legal wouldnt it be legal to all dieties with the Chaos domain until a clarification came out saying otherwise.

[CFet]

June Soler wrote:

Will,

Do you think that it even needs to be a separatist archetype?

I was thinking if its PFS legal wouldnt it be legal to all dieties with the Chaos domain until a clarification came out saying otherwise.

Thanks June, this really echoes the heart of my question. Whimsy is not currently associated with any deity; it would be nice to get an official PFS statement on this subdomain!

EDIT: Clarification for PFS added.

[Finlanderboy]

Gah I need this so our gnome color spray team will be complete.

Wizard colorsprayer
Sorcerer colorspayer
Oracle colorsprayer
Cleric Colorsprayer

[Beckett]

A few other books have likewise followed this format, offering new options like Subdomains without specifying deities. I'll double check, but I believe one of the newer ones (Champions of Purity?) goes into a bit of detail on it, saying it's basically open if the Domain it is based on is open, and no specific deities claim them.

Because they are legal for PFS, I assumed that is basically how it worked for them all, if you follow a deity that offers the Domain, than those extra Subdomains are also allowed.

[Rei]

Since it is stated in Chronicle of the Righteous that worshippers of Empyreal Lords get to choose from any subdomain potentially offered by their god, I'm guessing worshippers of Empyreal Lords who have the Chaos domain would be able to select the Whimsy subdomain, since it isn't explicitly forbidden to them (unlike such domains as Murder and Daemon). There's a pretty large selection, too - all of the azata Lords, and four angel Lords.

[Sarta]

June Soler wrote:

Will,

Do you think that it even needs to be a separatist archetype?

I was thinking if its PFS legal wouldnt it be legal to all dieties with the Chaos domain until a clarification came out saying otherwise.

Most deities do not grant access to all of the subdomain a associated with their domains. As such, it would be very nice if any new subdomain introduced would include a list of deities with access. Currently, a retcon is needed to identify which grant Whimsy officially.

["Devil's Advocate"]

Hit the FAQ button. They have been really good about making rulings recently.

[Illeist]

Actually, it says in Blood of Angels at the start of the subdomains section:

Quote:

The following subdomains grant powers to divine spellcasters whose abilities come from patrons of the good Outer Planes.

While developer commentary would certainly be appreciated, it may well be implied that these subdomains are available to any good-aligned deity.

[Sarta]

Illeist wrote:

Actually, it says in Blood of Angels at the start of the subdomains section:

Quote:

The following subdomains grant powers to divine spellcasters whose abilities come from patrons of the good Outer Planes.

While developer commentary would certainly be appreciated, it may well be implied that these subdomains are available to any good-aligned deity.

Except it isn't. With Whimsy being a subdomain of Chaos, it would be restricted to only Chaotic deities -- certainly not available to "any". Desna might grant access and Cayden Cailean may not. It requires a ruling.

Further, there are chaotic-neutral and perhaps even chaotic-evil gods who may also grant access.

[Iammars]

So then wouldn't the natural overlap be that good-aligned gods that grant the Chaos domain get the subdomain? (aka all the CG gods?) Those would be all of the patrons of the good Outer Planes who can grant subdomains of Chaos.

[Sarta]

Iammars wrote:

So then wouldn't the natural overlap be that good-aligned gods that grant the Chaos domain get the subdomain? (aka all the CG gods?) Those would be all of the patrons of the good Outer Planes who can grant subdomains of Chaos.

Not until an official ruling is made. Personally, I would not think that Bergelmir, Findeladlara, Ketephys, Milani, Skode, or possibly even Cayden Cailean grant access to this subdomain. While all of these are Chaotic-Good deities, none are particularly whimsical. Many stress independence and the need for vigilance -- if not the active hunting down -- of evil foes.

One can certainly grant a deity access to it for a home game, but until some are officially identified, it remains an unassigned sub-domain for PFS.

[Iammars]

Actually, as per Chronicles of the Righteous, the Empyreal Lords get all the subdomains associated with their domains (except for a small list), so all the Chaotic Empyreal Lords get the Whimsy subdomain.

[Sarta]

Iammars wrote:

Actually, as per Chronicles of the Righteous, the Empyreal Lords get all the subdomains associated with their domains (except for a small list), so all the Chaotic Empyreal Lords get the Whimsy subdomain.

Actually, as per the Chronicles of the Righteous, the Empyreal Lords grant access to the "subdomains presented in the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide". Any subdomains from another source would require official sanction for Empyreal Lords or any other deity in PFS.